Definition of bebop

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Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:20 am

What is it?

I mean what other than the end of jazz as a popular genre, and the beginning of jazz as a genre for too-hip know-it-alls?

I mean, did it introduce some kind of new harmonic language, or different uses for tone intervals?

It must have been something like that, because it really didn't bop any more boppishly than pre-bop.

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:21 am

Hozni wrote:

pinhedz wrote:
I mean, did it introduce some kind of new harmonic language, or different uses for tone intervals?
Yes. And then there's Hard Bop. And of course Post Bop. And The Big Bop. Er.

Bebop has become synonymous with JAZZ in the eyes of the general public. I remember my Aunt Linda saying she thought Count Basie was swing music, not jazz, because she thought jazz had to have difficult-to-follow solos that went on too long.



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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:23 am

Hozni wrote:

It's funny, after the big band era, jazz didn't become popular dance music again until the 1970s, with the Herbie Hancocks and Weather Reports. Then, aside from a bit of hip-hop & DJ jazz fusions, jazz became Museum Music. Or Starbucks Music. Receive a free copy of Kind of Blue with 5 Venti Soy Macchiatos.


Last edited by pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:23 am

9th chords and flated 5ths -- is that it, or is there more to it?

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:24 am

Hozni wrote:

I think it's safe to say bebop significantly expanded the palette tonally, harmonically, and rhythmically. You know, listen to 1960s Blue Note Records or whatnot (which I suppose would really be POST BOP), that's doing something pretty different from big band or what have you. It got to a point where the only unifying characteristics tying it to previous eras were THE SWING FACTOR (so it could still mean said thing) and instrument selection.


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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:29 am

Hozni wrote:I think it's safe to say bebop significantly expanded the palette tonally, ...
I think one could argue that the use of diminished chords has literally diminished the tonal palette, while making life much easier for lazy pianists and rhythm sections, because the harmonies sound so complex, even though the choice of chords is radically reduced and simplified.

Does anyone dispute that diminished chords are used--and overused--as a crutch, and that be-bop is to blame? bounce

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:30 am

pinhedz wrote:
Hozni wrote:I think it's safe to say bebop significantly expanded the palette tonally, ...

I think one could argue that the use of diminished chords has literally diminished the tonal palette, while making life much easier for lazy pianists and rhythm sections, because the harmonies sound so complex, even though the choice of chords is radically reduced and simplified.
But you cut out the rest of the post that made clear I was more referring to POST BOP, so you could continue to gripe about FIRST WAVE BEBOP. I think you need to broaden your analysis to include HARD BOP, WEST COAST JAZZ, SOUL JAZZ, and THIRD STREAM PIFFLE. bounce

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

"Third Stream PIFFLE." Shocked

This calls for another thread. bounce

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:36 am

You've probably seen this, but.................

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 13, 2011 2:18 pm

pinhedz

U. S. Christmas wrote:
pinhedz wrote:
U. S. Christmas wrote:I think it's safe to say bebop significantly expanded the palette tonally, ...
I think one could argue that the use of diminished chords has literally diminished the tonal palette, while making life much easier for lazy pianists and rhythm sections, because the harmonies sound so complex, even though the choice of chords is radically reduced and simplified.
But you cut out the rest of the post that made clear I was more referring to POST BOP, so you could continue to gripe about FIRST WAVE BEBOP. I think you need to broaden your analysis to include HARD BOP, WEST COAST JAZZ, SOUL JAZZ, and THIRD STREAM PIFFLE bounce
As soon as I saw "POST BOP," I concluded I'm not there yet. I have to get a handle on PRE-POST BOP first elephant .


Hosni

If Mr. Monk is an overuser of the flatted fifth, then I guess I like it.

I'm of the opinion that there can never be enough of THE DEVIL'S INTERVAL.


pinhedz

I don't think flatted 5ths are over-used.

I think diminished chords are overused--but definitely not by Monk.


Hosni

Who comprises your Rogue's Gallery of Diminished Chord Defilers?


pinhedz

Do I have to make it personal?* My object is not to cite abusers in order to denounce the genre--there are good and bad players in every genre, after all. What I'm trying to do is identify the characteristic features of the genre. In the end, I think the definition of a genre should be neutral, because whether it's good or bad depends on who's playing it.

Do you understand the purpose for my "griping?" It's because I'm hoping that, if there's an opposing viewpoint, someone will tell me about it. For example, if I am wrong that more widespread use of diminished chords came in with be-bop, then a rebuttal could keep me from mistakenly including that as one of the defining characteristics of the genre.

But so far no one seems to be objecting. Your asking me for names isn't really an objection is it? I expect you just want to see if I put anybody on my bad list that doesn't deserve to be there.


[*If I had to name names, I might start with pianist Billy Taylor, who I think makes all of the pieces he plays sound too much alike by overuse of diminished chords. But most of my complaints are about smaller-name performers that I've heard in restaurants and clubs. The biggest names are usually players that have steered clear of cliches and other pitfalls.]


Hosni

I thought the diminished chord was a pretty standard jazz 'n' blues chord, though most of the jazz I listen to is 1955 to 1975 approx. I stopped taking music theory classes when we were getting to counterpoint as I remember (so I could devote more time to archery) so feel free to elucidate your claims, for the proles.


pinhedz

U. S. Christmas wrote:I thought the diminished chord was a pretty standard jazz 'n' blues chord, though most of the jazz I listen to is 1955 to 1975 approx.
Yes, certainly standard in jazz after WW-II, but it wasn't so widespread in the 20s and 30s, and I wouldn't say it was (or is) standard in blues, except when the blues is played by jazz musicians.

My "claims" are not much more than an inquiry. I looks like maybe we're both out of ammo, unless Tiny drops by.

All I can do is hope that Gunther Schuler's heirs find the notes for volume III of his history of jazz series, and find someone that can edit and publish it.


Hosni

Note: Proogling tells me of Robert Johnson's fondness for the diminished chord.

What are your thoughts on Pete Townshend's use (overuse?) of the suspended chord? Should we diminish or suspend our expectations?

pinhedz

U. S. Christmas wrote:Note: Proogling tells me of Robert Johnson's fondness for the diminished chord.
Could you have accidentally typed "Django?"


pinhedz

Does Proogle tell us which finger he had his bottleneck on while playing those chords? Suspect


Hosni

Bob Brozman's Guide to Bacon Fat

Many blues songs employ diminished chords. In open G tuning you can obtain the necessary diminished chords easily: Take the first and third G7 chords shown in Ex. 5 and simply lower them one fret. Go back and forth, listening all the while to the changing notes over the open G bass.

The well-known Robert Johnson walking turnaround is tricky in standard tuning, and downright masochistic in open G. If you're wearing a bottleneck slide on your left little finger, you'll be forced to make this stretch with your index and ring finger. Ex. 9 shows the fretting for this turnaround. Musically the high G (first string, 5th fret) is played as a triplet, with the descending moving bass below played as quarter notes.

This tuning is without a doubt my favorite for bottlenecking. At this stage you should get used to all the new fingerings, experiment with combinations, memorize familiar important chords, and do lots of listening to the type of blues you want to learn. Diligent listening will teach you which notes are right for the style you're playing.


pinhedz

Robert Johnson was very slick for a delta dweller. Muddy waters--even though he moved to the big city and lived decades longer--never caught up with little Robert.


pinhedz

I believe the blues have led us off on a tangent here.

It would seem that we were on the right track when associating greater use of diminished chords with the period 1955-1975, or post-war blues.

Is that not much like associating greater use of diminished chords with be-bop?

Which is not to say more dims means it's be-bop, since lots of the cooler small-group players had adopted that new harmonic language back in the 1930s, so there have to be more elements to the definition of be-bop.

So what's the difference between be-bop and a bunch of cool expats in Paris in 1938?

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:33 am

Until the pinhed figures this thing out, he won't be able to progress past the '70s. Has anything really happened in the last 40 years? I mean really? study

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  Yakima Canutt on Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:11 am



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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  pinhedz on Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:21 am

^
I think that means no. Suspect

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Re: Definition of bebop

Post  Yakima Canutt on Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:47 pm



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