No more Andy/nemo

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:22 pm

ah memories

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Yakima Canutt on Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:04 pm

5 of the usernames posting in this Topic were generated/operated by the same person.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:09 pm

Which 5? scratch

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:36 am

pinhedz wrote:Which 5? scratch
yes , there are so many missing from here and the former forum , someone even posted a poem about it in ER 4 or so ex posters were mentioned.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:45 am

Doc Watson wrote: ... someone even posted a poem about it in ER 4 or so ex posters were mentioned.
Really? Was it good?

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:32 pm

just a few names in a few lines

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  blue moon on Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:45 pm

Was a cinquain. 

eddie
spaghetti junction
guacamayo and woo
I miss out universe

You?

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:52 pm

I just said I knew all the names mentioned and how the universe was struggling to survive. It reminded me of Desolation Row ." These people that you mention I know them..........."

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:52 am

... rearrange their faces, and give them all another name ...

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  blue moon on Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:33 pm

pinhedz wrote:... rearrange their faces, and give them all another name ...
Yes. It's an ongoing quest.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:21 pm

I'm going to tell the truth now--I'm not the original Dot Wiggin. silent

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  blue moon on Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:01 pm

pinhedz wrote:I'm going to tell the truth now--I'm not the original Dot Wiggin. silent
Oh god! 
How devastating. 

In this bold spirit of disclosure I too shall tell the truth...
I am not the original Gregory Corso.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:30 pm

omg I feel the urge to confess. I am not the real Doc Watson , infact I am not even a Doctor.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:50 pm

To the pinhed, you will always be a doctor. Smile

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Doc Watson on Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 pm

pinhedz wrote:To the pinhed, you will always be a doctor. Smile
Thankyou you are very kind.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Yakima Canutt on Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:42 pm

to the brinehead, Sangeet will always be some broccoli



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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:12 pm

To the pinhed, Sangeet has the best South Indian cuisine in Fairfax city. Smile

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Yakima Canutt on Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:17 pm



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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Andy on Mon May 16, 2016 10:44 am

Yakima Canutt wrote:5 of the usernames posting in this Topic were generated/operated by the same person.

It wasn't me.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Mon May 16, 2016 11:01 am

But since your join date says 2011, I think that means that you must be you now. Shocked

I was just going to say that I got a little farther into Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason," and I now see what he meant about things that we can know a priori (talking in part about mathematics, where it not only is what it is, it has to be what it is, always study ).

Whether or not this will lead to proof of God's existence remains to be seen. Suspect study Suspect Suspect

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Andy on Mon May 16, 2016 11:10 am

pinhedz wrote:

Whether or not this will lead to proof of God's existence remains to be seen. Suspect study Suspect Suspect

Kant deconstructs - in the old sense of the term, not the Heideggerian twist - the a priori proofs of God in the section called the Transcedental Dialectics. It did that so thoroughly that his friend Moses Mendelsohn called him the 'Alleszermalmer' - the all-destroyer. And metaphysics as a body of true knowledge has been dead ever since - well, Schopenhauer and German idealists in the vein of Hegel thought differently of course but what would philosophy be without such detours.µ

There is of course a Kantian 'proof of God' in the Critique of Practical reason in which he famously comes up with notions such as the postulates of practical reason and 'reasonbelief' ('Vernunftglaube' in German, I don't know how it is translated in English).
If we situate Kant within his specific time and political atmosphere, one can understand this reasoning. But to the modern reader, I think it is by far the most problematic part of his philosophy. Oh well, maybe that's just my a priori speaking.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Yakima Canutt on Mon May 16, 2016 1:41 pm


yeahbut, The Transcendental Dialectic's “Ideal of Reason” ... i mean you have your ens realissimum, but one also finds within it Kant's objections to the Ontological, Cosmological and Physico-theological (Design) arguments for God's existence. It is thus the text most central to the negative elements of Kant's philosophy of religion and is integral to the widely held view that Kant is deeply hostile to faith.

The general aim of the Transcendental Dialectic is to expose reason's excesses, its drive to move beyond the limits of possible experience, and to bring all concepts into a systematic unity under an “unconditioned condition.” The Transcendental Dialectic begins with a critique of reason's illusions and errors within the sphere of Rational Psychology. It then moves on to a critique of cosmological metaphysics, and then to the “Ideal of Reason” where Kant turns to Rational Theology and its pursuit of religious knowledge.

As Kant explains, underlying all the traditional proofs for God's existence is the concept of the ens realissimum, the most real being. Reason comes to the idea of this being through the principle that every individuated object is subject to the “principle of complete determination.” While the generality of concepts allow them to be less than fully determined (e.g. our concept of a horse extends over horses that are different colors, heights, etc.), individuated objects must be completely determined (e.g. an individual horse must have specific colors, a specific height, etc.).

Hence, where the particular determinations of actual objects are discovered through experience, our concepts, which in themselves are not objects of experience, necessarily remain partly indeterminate. Nevertheless, reason can construct for itself what is on the one hand still an abstraction but yet also an individuated entity. Kant refers to such entities as “ideals” and in most instances they are used by us regulatively as archetypes for reflection. For example, when considering whether or not to get a pet, one might envision an ideal pet, a pet with the optimal set of desirable attributes. Such an archetype for thought, however, is still not completely determined, for the ideal can still be neutral between various attributes that are not regarded as relevant to one's interests (for example, one may not consider any specific nostril width salient to one's choice of pet).

By contrast, the ens realissimum is the concept of an individual object that is completely determined, and is such through reason alone. In the case of most ideals, their determinations are the result of various empirical concepts as well as various subjective interests (such as what one believes a pet would bring to one's daily life). However, in the ens realissimum, all its determinations are set solely through reason's formal application of the principle of complete determination, aggregating together all possible predicates and selecting from these predicates all those which have a fully positive reality (no negative predicates, no derivative predicates). That is, following the concept of “the most real being,” reason brings together all possible predicates and eliminates those which involve some limitation or deficiency.

In doing this, the faculty does not violate any of the standards Kant sets out within Transcendental Idealism, for reason is merely applying the formal principle of complete determination to all possible predicates and constructing an idea (or more precisely, an ideal) thereby. This construction can then be entertained by the intellect, or perhaps, used as a regulative principle, as one does with other less grand ideals.

Transcendental error comes in, however, if reason also then tenders the ens realissimum as not merely a formal construct but as the metaphysical ground of all that is: since it (in principle) contains all determinations, and these determinations are of actual entities, a “transcendental subreption” may occur that transforms the ens realissimum from just an intellectual construct into a metaphysical reality as the sum total of all actuality.

As with other transcendental errors, we can subreptively conflate a subjective principle, generated by our intellects and of only regulative use, to one that is objective – a real being not constructed in thought, but discovered through thought. Such, we may say, is the source of error in Spinoza's use of substance and in other monistic metaphysics. Our construction of the ens realissimum has the appearance of an actual unity since it is the concept of the sum total of all positive predicates. This appearance then casts an illusion unrecognized by the metaphysicians, leading them into the subreptive error.

According to the Ontological Argument, it is self-evident from the idea of the most real being that that being exists. Whatever it is that is this most real being, it must include all predicates that contribute to its greatness or reality; and given that actual existence is (allegedly) one such predicate, whatever it is that is the most real being is therefore a being who by definition must exist. Hence, if one were to compare two beings, both equally great in all respects except that one exists and one does not, the one that does not exist, by virtue of its non-existence, is lacking a predicate that contributes to the greatness of the other. The correct conception of that than which nothing greater can be conceived must, therefore, include existence.

Kant's famous objection to this argument is that “existence is not a predicate.” This is explained through appeal to the distinction between an actual and non-actual unit of currency, say one hundred dollars. Between the two, there is no difference in the concepts of each: existence adds nothing to the concept of one hundred dollars. So, when one claims that “one hundred dollars exist,” one is not picking out one of its predicates, part of the nature of a hundred dollars, but rather is just “positing” that one has this hundred dollars. Likewise, to claim that “the most real being exists” is merely to posit its existence. It is not a statement about a property essential to this being, for existence, as it is not a predicate or property, cannot be a property of an essence.

Kant's further contends that the Cosmological Argument is parasitic on the Ontological. He demonstrates this by taking Leibniz's Modal Argument as emblematic of all other Cosmological Arguments and then contends that a being posited as necessary in order to explain the contingency of creation has built into it the same error as discussed above. According to Leibniz's Modal Argument, the existence of a contingent reality can only be ultimately explained through a cause whose existence is in itself necessary. However, something whose existence is in itself necessary is something whose existence cannot depend upon anything else but itself, its own nature. This returns us to the Ontological Argument, or at least the objectionable idea at its heart, for the necessary being that the Cosmological Argument proposes is also the idea of a being whose essence involves existence. So, as before, since existence is not a predicate, Kant rejects the coherence of the idea of a being whose existence depends upon nothing but its own nature.

Kant's treatment of the Physico-Theological (Design) Argument is, however, substantially different from the other two classic proofs. While he still contends that it remains ultimately grounded upon the Ontological Argument's assumption that existence is a predicate, this objection does not cut to the argument's core. Surprisingly, Kant expresses considerable sympathy for the Physico-Theological Argument, and claims, for instance, that it “always deserves to be mentioned with respect” (A623/B651). He describes it as “the oldest, the clearest, and the most accordant with the common reason of mankind” (A623/B651). He further regards it as having considerable utility for the Natural Sciences, a point he repeats in both the Appendix to the Transcendental Dialectic and in the Canon of Pure Reason.

In fact, Kant claims that the argument succeeds in at least establishing “an architect of the world” and a cause “proportioned” to the order of nature. So, up to this point in the argument, he writes, “we have nothing to bring against the rationality and utility of this procedure, but have rather to commend it further” (A624/B652). What Kant cannot accept, however, is its advance from a “Wise Author of Nature” to an infinite creator. When it moves from architect to creator, it proposes an “original” and “supreme” cause, and in so doing, it calls for a being whose existence depends upon nothing but itself. This returns us to the Cosmological/Modal argument, and thus to its dependency on the Ontological.


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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  pinhedz on Mon May 16, 2016 3:03 pm

Andy wrote: ... 'reasonbelief' ('Vernunftglaube' in German, I don't know how it is translated in English). ...
I suspect that the translator of my English-language edition (which dates from 1893) is one of the reasons I'm moving so slow. It's full of words like "cognize" and "intuit," which seem to be used in senses that I do not inuit and which run counter to my cognition. There are also words like "subreptively," which appears in Yakima's post above, and which I neither inuit or cognize.

I'm thinking I might need to assemble a glossary of these words--then the fog might begin to lift.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Andy on Mon May 16, 2016 10:01 pm

Kant was a notoriously complex writer, rendering his already quite complex philosophy even less accessible.
Even Kant himself acknowledged this problematic character of his writings.
"The Critique of Pure Reason" is said to be the product of an entire decade dedicated to overthinking its many problems, but the actual writing down of it all only took about 3 months.

When his magnus opus failed to provoke much reaction in the scientific / philosophical community of his time, he decided to render the content of his work a bit more easily accessible and wrote the "Prolegomena". Well, in fact the full title in German was "Prolegomena zu einer jeden künftigen Metaphysik die als Wissenschaft wird auftreten können" ... it's not entirely clear to me why he thought such a title would render his work more popular.
That being said: the Prolegomena is a fairly good and readable 'short introduction to' the Critique, so I usually advice people to either read it before they start reading the actual Critique or alongside it.

Translations of course are as much a blessing as they are a curse. I know you speak Russian, so I'm sure that you've experienced the tragedy of translations for yourself.
Speaking for myself: over the past decade or so there have been a number of quite beautiful edition of dutch translations of (among others) Kant. When I'm reading Kant I will usually read from these dutch translations but keep a cheaper edition of the actual German text close at hand. (In Germany you have for instance 'Reklam Verlag' which edits very cheap paperback editions of almost any historical German work you can think of. The booklets have a very ugly yellow cover, the print is very small and the size of the booklet itself often not very practical, but I believe you could buy Kants entire corpus for less than € 50,00.)
That of course only make sense if you're able to read German. I could do the exact same thing when reading Plato, but as I'm not able to read ancient Greek that would only be preposterous.

I would be a bit surprised if there haven't been any translations of Kants major works in the 20th century. A more recent translation might use a vocabulary more closely in touch with contemporary terminology. A really good edition might even have a glossary with specific terminology.

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Re: No more Andy/nemo

Post  Andy on Tue May 17, 2016 4:20 am


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Re: No more Andy/nemo

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