Bin Laden is dead

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Fri May 06, 2011 3:54 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:Please give us a few examples of Islam's to-its-core fucked-up-ness.

Off the top of my head- it's oppressive to women (who are given the status of slaves essentially and are frequently maimed and murdered in "honor killings"), homosexuals (who are commanded to be put to death as well, unequivocally), infidels and apostates (who are also supposed to be killed), etc etc. Google "religion of peace" for more

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 4:10 am

it's just a case of glass half empty or glass half full

if we looked in the mirror we could see a lot of despicable qualities about ourselves and our prejudices and our religions

try telling me that the Christian religion doesn't hate on gays or that women (like me) are always treated justly in our corner of world dominance and stupid American sentiment and ignorance.....or even Australian.......purported freedom........(gets ugly sometimes when you get to the truth of Western democracy's so-called freedoms)

there is beauty in Islam......

I am pretty sure there is and all the evidence you seem to present so enthusiastically

will not convince me otherwise

for every terrorist or fanatic in Islam there are at least 10 people who pray deeply, who genuflect devoutly, who dream of peace and who could probably whup your ass

I know that there's more nuance and meaning in things apart from the gung-ho obvious.....crap that you proclaim

that's something that actually comforts me when I see the plastic marauders march up to the line.....and grab their swords

there is more nuance - speaking of which I should probably go to bed

and I wouldn't go round using the word 'unequivocally' until you know what it means Wink


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Fri May 06, 2011 4:32 am

Catherine wrote:try telling me that the Christian religion doesn't hate on gays or that women (like me) are always treated justly in our corner of world dominance and stupid American sentiment and ignorance.....or even Australian.......purported freedom........(gets ugly sometimes when you get to the truth of Western democracy's so-called freedoms)

You are truly a fucking idiot.

By the way, I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN EITHER, dumbfuck. I never said Christianity wasn't shitty. It's far less shitty than Islam, though.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 4:39 am

it's really fun when you get to the heart of the matter

when you can really match wits with someone who's an equal.......

that's what I love about discussing things......

the thrust and parry - yeah, I'm really digging your whole.......

"I'm right even though I'm a dumbfuk shit for brains moron" mentality

I believe you are right and I am wrong

but it's just cos you're some kind of amazing genius that has caught me off guard....who has wrong-footed me and left me with no argument, no hope of resurrecting some kind of tenable exit from your wonderful, devastating, almost superhuman strategy of incredible magnificence

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Fri May 06, 2011 4:51 am

Strawberry Jam wrote: simply googled "islam reform" and found a wealth of sites and organisations arguing for a reform of Islam and claiming that all the terrible things happening in the name of Islam have nothing to do with the core of the religion. Here's one interesting excerpt:

I have neither time nor inclination to do extensive research here, but it strikes me that if you remember the history of Christianity you will have to acknowledge that Christians used to be a much nastier bunch 600 years ago than they are today. Homophobia, misogyny, cruelty and authoritarianism etc. are nothing Islam has a monopoly on. No great fan of the churches as they are now, but you have to concede they are a lot more civilised than they used to be. If you go around saying Islam is evil to the core, you basically say it has to go. Great way of bringing peace to the world telling a billion people their religion is fundamentally evil. Wouldn't it be more helpful to try and learn more and support people inside Islam who oppose the fundamentalist killers?

The problem with "reforming" islam is that you basically have to admit the religion is bullshit to do so. You have to admit that parts of the Quran (the direct word of the prophet of god, allegedly) are WRONG, and that you know better than the god you purport to worship.

As for your point about Christianity...again, what the fuck does that have to do with anything? How the in the name of all that is fucky is "well, other people were also dicks at one point in time" a defense for being a fucking dick? It's not. Nor is "well, we're not the WORST dicks out there..." a defense. Islam is pure dickery. That's all there is to it. If you try to say it's not you're lying and ignoring the parts of it that are dickish and just focusing on the few parts that aren't- which is exactly what Christians do today. They cherry pick whatever they want. Fred Phelps is a true Christian. He knows what's in the Bible, he's read it. The same cannot be said for 99% of other Christians in the world who pretend that their god isn't perfectly ok with murdering gays, adulterers, and people who work on the sabbath, with rape and slavery, etc.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Fri May 06, 2011 6:40 am

Christianity did not reform itself- it was reformed by the outside. People stopped putting up with their bullshit and they had to change to accommodate the science and morality of the enlightenment. Islam, on the other hand, went in the opposite direction- the Islamic world was once on the cutting edge of science and now it's the shittiest place on earth.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Blondie on Fri May 06, 2011 7:42 am

I'm impressed with Hi-Top's honesty and clarity on the issue, not to mention his ability to turn "dick" and "fuck" into various parts of speech. Well done, sir

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Fri May 06, 2011 10:19 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:I just checked the link you posted, Mack. I hope you do realize that blog is all about spreading prejudice and hatred. It's a horrible site.
Srawberry are you some kind of ultraliberal or something...you found a website more horrible than the mangled body of some innocent person who was killed in the name of Allah ???

Listen I have several friends that are Muslims (mostly from Africa)...I have been to four of their homes and broke bread at two of them. Water boarding is not about them...they are hard working honest people who do not hate Jews. It's about radicals who think that if you don't think like them you should be killed. If binny and his followers had thier way every Jew alive would be killed with the touch of a button. Next button would be the Christians / Westerns. I don't know if you read the news or not but alot of RADICAL Muslims are going on rampages killing Infidels. They have to be stoped any way they can be !

From todays 'paper' : WASHINGTON – Some of the first information gleaned from Osama bin Laden's compound indicates al-Qaida considered attacking U.S. trains on the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, but counterterrorism officials say they believe the plot was only aspirational and have no recent intelligence about any active plan for such an attack.

As of February 2010, the terror organization was considering tampering with an unspecified U.S. rail track so that a train would fall off the track at a valley or a bridge, according to a Homeland Security intelligence warning sent to law enforcement officials around the country Thursday. The warning was obtained by The Associated Press and marked for "official use only."

This information appears to be the first widely circulated intelligence pulled from the raid this week on bin Laden's secret compound in Pakistan.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Doc Watson on Fri May 06, 2011 10:37 am

The triumphant equation of assassination with justice in the Bin L:aden killing contrasts with Israel and Eichmann.
Eichmann was kidnapped in Argentina and bought to Isreal to stand trial. It was a trial conducted fairly and in line with legal principles .
By publicly sanctioningthe killing of Bin Laden Obama Obama pepetuates the cycle of policital violence in pursuit of political ideas that Bin Laden himself championed . Bin Laden will never face justice . It will now be very easy to make him a martyr.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 06, 2011 11:21 am

Does anyone know what an unemployed resident of leeds earns for being a suicide bomber? I know that Saddam used to pay $25,000.00, but I don't know what Al Qaeda pays.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Fri May 06, 2011 12:35 pm


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Doc Watson on Fri May 06, 2011 1:41 pm

pinhedz wrote:Does anyone know what an unemployed resident of leeds earns for being a suicide bomber? I know that Saddam used to pay $25,000.00, but I don't know what Al Qaeda pays.
the reward is in the next life Very Happy

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 06, 2011 3:02 pm

Doc Watson wrote:
pinhedz wrote:Does anyone know what an unemployed resident of leeds earns for being a suicide bomber? I know that Saddam used to pay $25,000.00, but I don't know what Al Qaeda pays.
the reward is in the next life Very Happy
They require hard cash in addition to that.

Does anyone know? I don't think $25,000.00 would be enough for next of kin living in London.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri May 06, 2011 7:53 pm

Christianity believes there is a God in three instantiations which was incarnated in the flesh to cleanse humanity through suffering from the original sin for which it would be cursed and damned by the very same God.


Only some Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, for instance Catholics do, JW's don't.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  precinct14 on Fri May 06, 2011 8:56 pm

pinhedz wrote:Does anyone know what an unemployed resident of leeds earns for being a suicide bomber? I know that Saddam used to pay $25,000.00, but I don't know what Al Qaeda pays.

This is an (unsubtle) attempt to infer that the 7/7 bombings were part funded (at least) by al-Qaeda. There is no evidence to suggest that they were.

The ringleader and one of his cohorts ran an Islamic bookshop attached to a local Community school in Leeds, with which they shared local government funding. The school also received a £20k charity donation from BBC's Children in Need, some of which was passed on to the bookshop.

The National Terrorist Financial Investigation Unit report on the funding of 7/7 and domestic terrorism in general concluded thus (al-Qaeda doesn't get a mention):

By definition, the domestic terrorist does not usually require funding in respect of his/her daily living expenses. That is taken care of by whatever means would be employed if they were not terrorists, i.e. salary, benefit payments etc. The only costs involved, therefore, are those incurred in training and recruitment, and the commission of the attack. As an illustration of this, it has been
established by the relevant Metropolitan Police unit that costs of the London Bombings
of 7th July 2005 can be approximately broken down as follows:

Construction and Deployment of devices £4,600 (of which actual materiél = £2,500)
International Travel £1,810
Training Weekends £ 825
TOTAL £7,235 approximately

Extensive investigations revealed that the likely funding for this was entirely self-generated
by the leader of the cell, in the form of a £10,000 bank loan, and £4,000 cash
withdrawn from credit cards. After several repayments of each, he defaulted, and
therefore had more than enough funds to finance the attack and to make potential
financial provision for dependants following the death of the bombers. There was not
even any need for false identities, as he did not intend to be around when the wheels of debt collection finally finished their revolutions.


There is also no evidence that has come to light that I can find, or that is included in the NTFIU report, to suggest that the dependents of the bombers received any further remuneration, from sources other than the bank loan and credit card fraud detailed above. You will, of course, know that their finances would have been closely scrutinised, following the bombings.

All four bombers were employed. To find out what an unemployed suicide bomber from Leeds is paid by al-Qaeda, you are cordially invited to do your own research.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 06, 2011 9:08 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Pinz, there was this question I asked, and I'm really dying to hear your answer to it:

Strawberry Jam wrote:So would or wouldn't you agree that waterboarding is cruel, and that any attempt to declare it legal in the U.S. would have to twist logic and semantics very thoroughly indeed?
Who cares about pinhedz opinion? I'm not a lawyer and I don't even believe in obeying the law all the time. geek

I remember that the administration said they had consulted lawyers and determined that waterboarding is not "torture."

They also noted that the detainees do not have the rights of US citizens. Amendment 8 to the US Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment," which might be interpreted as the same as torture ... or not.

So, US citizens--according to the US Constitution--cannot be subjected to "cruel and unusual punishment," but detainees do not have that protection.

Detainees are protected against "torture"--not further defined--by a UN convention signed by the US.

So, it all comes down to the definition of "torture." We can only speculate about what definition the lawyers used. I am not a lawyer but I speculate (please don't come back calling this "my" position) that it had something to do with inflicting physical (rather than mental) pain and/or inflicting injury or leaving physical marks (police interrogators used to be careful not to leave marks).

But that's only speculation, and if you think that's at odds with the wording in the UN Convention, you'll have to take the matter up with the Bush Administration's lawyers. Since the practice was stopped during Bush's first term, they might have already done an internal review themselves and changed their minds.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 06, 2011 9:10 pm

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:Does anyone know what an unemployed resident of leeds earns for being a suicide bomber? I know that Saddam used to pay $25,000.00, but I don't know what Al Qaeda pays.

This is an (unsubtle) attempt to infer that the 7/7 bombings were part funded (at least) by al-Qaeda. There is no evidence to suggest that they were.
Subtlety is not the name of the game here.

Does it help? A National Terrorist Financial Investigation Unit report certainly should be the right place to look. Of course it's an "absence-of-evidence" story, which means they concluded with information gaps, but--yes, I'd say it helps.

The absence of a known link to Al Qaeda now begs another question: in the wake of Bin Laden's death, are we to expect reprisals from the likes of the 7/7 terrorists--even if there is no link to Al Qaeda?

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  precinct14 on Fri May 06, 2011 10:09 pm

pinhedz wrote:The absence of a known link to Al Qaeda now begs another question: in the wake of Bin Laden's death, are we to expect reprisals from the likes of the 7/7 terrorists--even if there is no link to Al Qaeda?

Well our anti-terrorism authorities are flexing themselves for attempted reprisals. Here's what Met chief Sir Paul Stephenson had to say, a couple of days ago:

“As Government, the police and the security service assess the impact and consequences of the death of Osama bin Laden, it is clear that there can be no let up in our vigilance. One man's death does not mark the end of an ideology and we must remain alert to the continuing threat from al-Qaeda, its affiliates and those acting alone.”

Something else. That NTFIU report concluded with this fairly chilling assessment:

'Five transactions of £500 using a badly enforced means of money movement
will provide enough anonymous cash to fund an attack as devastating as 7th July 2005.'

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Sat May 07, 2011 2:55 am

Captain Hi-Top wrote:

that is a work of art........just absolutely brilliant......pure*genius


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Sat May 07, 2011 3:16 am

ANDY wrote:From a conceptual p-o-v I actually wouldn't agree with that.

Islam believes that there is a God who at one point delivered His Word to Mohammed - a mortal but blessed human.

Christianity believes there is a God in three instantiations which was incarnated in the flesh to cleanse humanity through suffering from the original sin for which it would be cursed and damned by the very same God.

There is a philosophical dimension which actually does make a Christian understanding of divinity very interesting - many parts of Christianity are barely disguised elements of Greek philosophy, especially platonism. But from an every-day point of view Christianity is by far the most awkward brand of Abrahamic religion.

As for the matters concerning oppression ... you have a point to some degree.
But I know of no single system that can claim to be free of it - the "free market" you seem to like is as much an oppressive system as an totalitarian religion.

I'm not talking about the rationality of their fairy tales, I am talking about their rules, laws and morals. Jesus, at least some of the time, stressed love and forgiveness. I do not think there is anything like that in Islam.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Sat May 07, 2011 5:45 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:I never said the website was more horrible than terrorist attacks. Of course it isn't. Please don't put words in my mouth.
First off Strawberry, I wasn't endorsing any website, I was merely putting up a image of the handy work of binny and his boys. And I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth...I based my post on not what you said BUT what you didn't say ! I don't know about that website one way or the other BUT I can tell you one thing I don't believe in hate mongering.

Don't know if you have had the chance to read any of my postings of the pass BUT I dispiste the profit driven media and don't trust a word they say. BUT lets say Mohamed the waiter is a true story...if in fact he was FORCED to wear a name tag with John on it...I think that it was wrong and he should be compensated for his humiliation according to the law.

I'd like to share with you, something I read in the ultraliberal profit driven Philadelphia Inquirer and it's a passage I love to tell. In a opinion column Claude Lewis* a blackman wrote 'anyone who tells you they don't have a prejudice bone in their body doesn't have any bones. He went on to say that he was married to a white woman and still has it in him to dislike SOME people for the simple fact thier a caucasian.
Straberry Jam wrote:...blacks would still be sitting in the back of the bus in the South. I'm sure that's not what you want - or Mack are you some kind of racist or something...
You must missed this part of my post:
Old Mack wrote:Listen I have several friends that are Muslims (mostly from Africa)...I have been to four of their homes and broke bread at two of them. Water boarding is not about them...they are hard working honest people who do not hate Jews.
I grew up in a racial mixed lower middle class neighborhood and have countless friends that are people of color. My oldest friend in the world is black and we have known each other for 50 years now. So am I a racist or something...well I like to think of myself as a or something based on Claude Lewis theroy that we don't live in a perfect world and it is only human to have certain prejudice.

Now back to binny and the likes...do I think water boarding a terrorist to get info that will save lives is torture, I answer a BIG NO. A BIG YES on do I think water boarding a terrorist to get your rocks off or for retaliation is torture. If you take that image I posted in the link and times it by the thousands you'll have a idea of the handy work binny and his likes. Nothing is to good or to bad to do anything to stop them, at least in my book.

*Claude Lewis is the author of six books, among them biographies of Adam Clayton Powell Jr. and Muhammad Ali. He has served as a Pulitzer Prize juror and was a founder of the National Association of Black Journalists. He has also enjoyed a long career as a teacher of journalism and urban affairs at several universities.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Sat May 07, 2011 5:58 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:Perhaps you should make the effort of reading up a bit on the stuff you make such sweeping judgments about.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Sat May 07, 2011 6:27 am

You're right, I should read the whole Quran and not judge it on the dozens of verses in it that say I deserve to be murdered.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Sat May 07, 2011 7:56 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:I can't agree with you about the waterboarding though. I see where you are coming from, and I can understand it, but I am convinced it's a line one can't cross without losing an important part of one's humanity.
OH so your just a liberal and not a ultraliberal ! Liberals are OK in my book...it's the ultraliberals you have to look out for. (the rightwingers to) One of the componets of being a ultraliberal is not respecting other peoples opinions or even trying to understand why they feel the way they do. Ultraliberals think thier right and everyone else is wrong and only thier opinions mater and if you don't think like them your stupid.

Here's how ultraliberals dress thier kids:


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  precinct14 on Sat May 07, 2011 8:07 am

This should officially be declared The New ATU's first gold disc thread.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

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