Bin Laden is dead

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 8:01 am

pinhedz wrote:The Republican's are trying to restrain themselves from gloating, now that it's been disclosed that the critical leads that put us on Bin Laden's trail several years ago were the result of water boarding.
This is the best post of the thread !

The ultraliberals really want to believe it was President Obama and the Democrats who sealed binnys fate, when in reality it was work of many, many people for many, many years and it all started with a glass of water. (first the terror suspect is offered a glass of water while being questioned)

I thought everyone knew that !!!

Here's a picture of some people with to much time on thier hands:


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 8:20 am

I guess it all comes down to what your def of torture is. All the terrorist who were water board did so voluntarialy...since it didn't happen to the ones who spilled the beans !

It seems to me all those ultraliberal protestors were more concern with bashing President Bush and the welfare of terrorist than they were of terrorist victims and potential victims.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Thu May 05, 2011 8:30 am

Old Mack wrote:I guess it all comes down to what your def of torture is. All the terrorist who were water board did so voluntarialy...since it didn't happen to the ones who spilled the beans !

It seems to me all those ultraliberal protestors were more concern with bashing President Bush and the welfare of terrorist than they were of terrorist victims and potential victims.

Wow...

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 10:29 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:Golden humour here. They didn't talk because they wanted to be tortured? That's a great definition of torture - following it, torture doesn't exist at all since anybody can avoid it by saying what they are expected to say.
First off let me say the CIA folks who did the interogated were not rookie cops from some hick town. They were highly trained highly educated personal and they knew what they were doing.

I never said the terrorist who were water boarded did so because they wanted to be tortured...wait a minute I see you have a question mark at the end of your sentence so that changes the context. Anyhow what I did say was those terrorist who freely gave intel were not water boarded. Therefore that leaves me with the conclusion that the terrorist who were water boarded did so out of their own volition !!!(Volition is the cognitive process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action.)

And again I repeat...it depends on your def of what torture is ! If the President was to feed the terrorist pork sandwiches washed down with beer...some people would concider that torture, while other would concider it having a great time !

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Doc Watson on Thu May 05, 2011 11:38 am

In the end what has been acheived ?
Bin Laden is dead . Anything else ?
Has it bought closure to the families of the September 11 victims?
M<aybe all it has done is made Bin Laden a martyr.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Thu May 05, 2011 3:31 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:
Old Mack wrote:And again I repeat...it depends on your def of what torture is ! If the President was to feed the terrorist pork sandwiches washed down with beer...some people would concider that torture, while other would concider it having a great time !
Actually torture is clearly defined in the UN Convention Against Torture:

United Nations Convention Against Torture wrote:
Article 1,1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
Article 2,2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
Your pork sandwiches and beer example would indeed constitute torture if the people forcefeeding the stuff knew that eating and drinking the stuff would inflict severe mental suffering on the prisoner; in fact, this would the whole point of it if the prisoner were a fanatic Muslim...

This guy is right^

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 3:37 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Actually torture is clearly defined in the UN Convention Against Torture:

United Nations Convention Against Torture wrote:
Article 1,1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
Article 2,2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
There's a bit of a problem with your citing the UN Convention Against Torture--the only countries committed to it are the ones that signed it. About 2 dozen countries have signed it--including Afganistan and the UK, but the US has not signed it.

You say that this issue is important in defining "who we are," and I think you're right. Who were we ever? If you went back to the time of WW-II or the Korean War and tried to argue that a wet towel making it hard to breath is "torture," I think you'd have been laughed at--not only in this country, but in most countries. Times have changed, and even the US public is much more sensitive in this century than we were in any previous century.

The traditional model of interrogation was that it was wrong to break bones, shed blood, dislocate joints, or--generally speaking--to leave marks. The primary technique was to scare the guy half to death with fierce bellowing, death threats, and whatever, and to produce stress with hot lights in the face and stiff-backed chairs. The sensation of drowning, accompanied by the fear of death but leaving no marks, would have been considered perfectly legit.

I suspect that the reason water boarding was used in 2002 (and it has not been used since) was because the interrogation manuals probably had a lot of holdover instructions from an earlier time.

As for modern times--the US will act on the legal definitions in effect in the US right now (I believe there is now a US policy decision against water boarding), and the UN Convention has no legal standing whatever, even if it has been signed by the UK and Venezuela.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Dick Fitzwell on Thu May 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Does your constitution allow torture?

It does.

edit: I should clarify- it doesn't really say anything either way. It forbids "cruel and unusual punishment," obviously... but whether or not that refers to torture is debatable and I don't know how the Supreme Court has ruled on it


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 4:12 pm

That's a surprise--my source said the opposite. But yours is probably right, and that means I get to admit I'm wrong, thereby proving I've got Class.

Does our Constitution allow torture, you ask?

Now shame on you for the trick question; the issue not not torture, it's water boarding.

So, does our Constitution allow water boarding? The Constitution left things like criminal-law enforcement to the individual states. Most local laws have probably evolved and no longer allow hot coals or breaking bones on the rack.

Our Constitution has one line that basically says "Anything not expressly prohibited is permitted." This was considered necessary to prevent parties from claiming that rights not spelled out don't exist.

I think the loophole you pointed could be huge (we probably wouldn't have insisted on it if it wasn't).

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 4:14 pm

Captain Hi-Top wrote:
Strawberry Jam wrote:Does your constitution allow torture?

It does.
That's true too, but it was still a trick question SJ asked. bounce

But we don't allow "cruel or unusual punishment" any more. Is that the same as torture?


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 4:34 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Apart from the UN Convention, there's also the Geneva Convention, of course, which also outlaws torture. Please look it up yourself.

And your idea about the harmlessness of water boarding is completely wrong. Here's the account of a British soldier who was water boarded by the Japanese in WWII:
I believe all Western countries have internal laws (not necessarily part of their Constitutions) banning "torture" (though we use the wording "cruel and unusual punishment"). What they might not have is laws banning water boarding (you just turned your trick question into a statement, but it's still the same trick).

If you'll re-read my post about interrogation techniques involving bellowing threats, fear of death, etc., I'm positive you will not find the word "harmless" anywhere in that post (I doubt that any "harmless" interrogation technique would be successful in extracting information).

The story of the British soldier is horrific, but I'm beginning to think you aren't following me at all. Are you trying to prove that water boarding is prohibited by the US Constitution? Or are you just trying to prove that it's awful? Those are two entirely different things.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 5:30 pm

Who we are, and who we were.

I think your notion of what the Western democracies used to be might be romanticized. At one time (around the time our Constitution was written) we used to flog men to death (unless it was just the British). I'm confident that regulations forbidding "cruel and unusual punishment" have become more restrictive, rather than less restrictive, since WW-II.

And I still think that being taken prisoner by a NATO party is much more desirable than being taken prisoner by most middle-eastern armies. The worst things the Americans did at Abu Ghraib (which were in gross violation of US regulations) have come to light, but do we have any idea what's been happening there with Iraqis running it?

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 5:35 pm

Strawberry Jam first let me say thanks for not shunning me.

But you are confusing me...what I first said was I thought pinhedz post was the best one of this thread. So to clarify what I really really meant was that the Bush haters went on and on about torture but it was waterboarding of terrorist in a secret CIA prison camp that led to binny's capture.

My point...if I had my choice between saving peoples lives or not waterboarding terrorist, I'd pick the former.

At this point I'm not sure what your point is !

Here's a picture of just one bombing alqaeda was behind...it happened in Madrid, Spain:



Shortly after 7:00 a.m. on Thursday, March 11, 2004 thirteen terrorists, boarded four separate trains to plant bombs. All of the bombs were carefully timed to go off at the exact moment each of the trains pulled into Atocha station; one by one they would be triggered by cell phones.

At about 7:20, the terrorist exit the trains leaving sports bags under their seats.

At 7:39, four bombs (planted at the front, middle, and rear of a single train) exploded just as it pulled into Atocha station. Three bombs planted on another train went off simultaneously a block away.

At 7:41 two more bombs exploded on yet another train at a nearby station, while one last bomb went off on a train at Santa Eugenia station.

A total of 177 people died at the scene, and 24 more died while under medical care; over 2,000 people were wounded. Most of the victims were students and blue-collar workers who could not afford to live in the city and so commuted from outlying neighborhoods.


BTW: the terrorist planted several more bombs that failed to go off, so the death toll of CIVILIANS could have been alot higher !

So if you think I give a rats ass about terrorist being water boarded...you must be crazy or something ! Maybe you wouldn't TORTURE terrorist to PREVENT stuff like this BUT I would ! http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 6:29 pm

You seem to be saying that because Bin Laden was located in part as a result of water boarding, that means that all of our morals and ideals are lost.

To me it seems obvious that we're more moralistic than ever--do you think we'd have had a conversation like this in the 1940s or 1950s?


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  sil on Thu May 05, 2011 6:57 pm

Waterboarding is a step back.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 7:22 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Nice try - ridicule per hyperbole.
Hyperbole? It was just what you said:

" ... So Enlightenment ideals have set something in motion and I would still like to think of them as slowly gaining more ground, as they did during their first two hundred years or so, not losing it.

If we completely give up on them, we might just give up on any kind of moral reasoning within politics. That might be more honest, but also rather awful, because then it would simply be one great free-for-all, in which the 9/11 attacks would be equally justified as the Bin Laden killing, because - morals, what morals? -

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 7:35 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:Oh, I wanted to stay out of the legal quagmire - and yet, if you read an account like Eric Lomax's, you would have to put quite a spin on things if you wanted to argue water boarding isn't "cruel and unusual punishment" (well, "unusual" can be bent any which way of course, but saying water boarding isn't cruel - p-uh-lease...)
Bringing up Lomax made it clear that you wanted out of the legal discussion--but you're the one who asked the questions about US constitutional law. And while I've been talking about that, you start talking about "my" position (no way is this conversation about "my" position).

I'm constantly hearing that we're going backwards, which just shows how much people have forgotten.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:No,it's not what I said. I said "if we completely give up" on Enlightenment values. I didn't say we had already done so. Didn't you notice the half dozen or so "would"s I used?
Conditional on what? If you weren't saying it was conditional on the water boarding, we're off on a tangent.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Old Mack wrote:
Maybe you wouldn't TORTURE terrorist to PREVENT stuff like this BUT I would !
Strawberry Jam wrote:But no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that...
I'd let all those CIVILIANS be killed and wounded rather than torture TERRORIST ???

See all those sheets...there are dead people under them or whats left of them.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  sil on Thu May 05, 2011 9:14 pm

pale


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  precinct14 on Thu May 05, 2011 9:21 pm

pinhedz wrote:
precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:"Thousands of messages" come from the kind of people that will post messages--in other words, people that do nothing.
What, you mean the kind of people that post messages with lyrics that are supposedly better than Bob Dylan's? Shocked
Good comparison--how much action are you expecting from the likes of us? Cool

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:What's needed is leadership and resources--not posting messages.
Right. Or, in the case of London's 7/7 attacks, a bomb-making kit, 4 rail tickets, 4 backpacks and a posthumous video message.
Or 9-11, just a few plane tickets and box cutters. Ed Husain seems not to understand it took a heck of a lot more than that (starting with funding the places where he was indoctrinated).

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:And those messages don't even reflect the views of the general populations of the middle eastern countries. Polls over the last 10 years show that Al Qaeda's approval rating has plunged to single digits in most countries.
So what? Did the terrorist acts of al-Qaeda reflect 'the views of the general populations of the middle eastern countries'? Didn't stop them committing them though, did it? And anyway, the 7/7 bombings had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, let alone its popularity. This beast is hydra-headed, Mr
Popularity is what Ed Husain is talking about in his article. If you don't think popularity matters, you're evidently not so kean on his article after all.

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:I remember some idiot on the stage at Woodstock announcing "This it the 5th largest army in the world." cheers

Irrelevant poppycock. Plus, Woodstock only lasted 3 days.
Not irrelevant poppycock at all. Ed Husain is claiming that a bunch of stirred up youngsters are going to rock our world, which shows he doesn't live in the real world--he lives in a think tank. Three days--yes, that's about how long it lasts.

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:This at a time when the entire movement has become almost universally unpopular (those "thousands of messages" notwithstanding).
So unpopular that its leader was able (or allowed) to spend 5 years living next door to the blue chip military academy of a Muslim country that has produced a conveyor belt of religious extremist, would-be terrorists.
I'm not seeing the connection to popularity there--but feel free to elaborate (and I thought you just dismissed popularity in your point before last--but never mind Rolling Eyes).

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:And does the author really think that Bin Laden was the "first Saudi Martyr?" Weren't most of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudis? All were from Saudi Arabia, with the exception of Fayez Banihammad, according to the 9/11 Commission Report.
Nitpicking. Anyway, we're talking head honcho martyr here.
Then why not say "head-honcho" instead of "first?" Anyways, loss of the head honcho is more demoralizing than inspirational, unless he rises from the dead.

I'm going to keep this fairly brief, so that you don't have to re-edit your reply 4 times, like you did last time:

When Ed Husain writes that bin Laden is more dangerous dead than alive, he's making the point that there won't be any reprisal attacks if there's no reason for one. Now there is.

Your analogy between 9/11 and 7/7 is absurd, and typically disingenuous. The 9/11 terrorists needed all the funding and logistical support, not the 7/7 bombers. Three of them came from Leeds, and lived at home with their families. The 9/11 terrorist were scattered all over the US, and only came together at the end. They also depended on the flight instruction that they received in the US. The 7/7 bombers needed no funding whatsoever- nor did they have to learn how to drive a tube train. All they needed- along with the backpacks, rail tickets, and bomb-making kits- was the indoctrination, and that comes free, in the right mosque.

Husain is right. You might kill bin Laden, but you won't kill the ideology. Here's an extract from the video message of 7/7 bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan, describing his motivation:

'I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.'

Are you trying to tell me that that motivation has disappeared, along with the threat it carries, because bin Laden is dead, and the 'general populations of the middle eastern countries' don't approve of al-Qaeda? Rolling Eyes

Now, do carry on with your sophistical waterboarding of poor old Strawberry Jam. pip pip




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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Thu May 05, 2011 10:59 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:
Old Mack wrote:http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/
I just checked the link you posted, Mack. I hope you do realize that blog is all about spreading prejudice and hatred. It's a horrible site.

Agreed, Bare Naked Islam is a bit of a clue, I wonder if Mac was looking for something else?

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Thu May 05, 2011 11:44 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:
Old Mack wrote:http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/
I just checked the link you posted, Mack. I hope you do realize that blog is all about spreading prejudice and hatred. It's a horrible site.

I just got here so I don't know what all the fuss if about yet

but I hope you realise SJ that realize is spelt with an s in most normal countries bounce

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 12:08 am

guacamayo wrote:I understand Mack too. Now I'm asking myself, would I torture a deplorable human being if that meant I would save say my brother from being killed for no reason? I would (and it would be a natural reaction, I think). It is not that I don't care about people who are not related to me (anyway my brother could have been killed in Madrid) but aproving torture in a society we consider civilized would be different (even if it's only applicable to terrorists who kill people indiscriminately). I wouldn't be happy to hear there is a torture camp here to prevent terrorism.

I don't believe in and strongly disavow torture no matter what results it produces

I think there is a lot more of it going on than I realise - I don't say 'we' because I'm pretty sure that most people couldn't give a flying fuk about it......

I agree with SJ (at least with what he's written) I haven't read the Lomax article yet

I was having a discussion with someone who said everybody has the potential to be evil and torture and murder people but I disagree

there's a thing called conscience - which I realise is very undeveloped in some people's minds.....

if we find it convenient to dispense with compassion, tolerance and to turn to hatred, torture, anger (I'm guilty of this sometimes) and valuing certain people over others when we reserve privileges for ourselves and our type of people

I don't believe in torturing terrorists - I don't believe in any form of cruelty against people whether they are guilty or innocent

I think every person is as valuable as the rest of them

the woman in Croatia (war criminal) tortured men for pleasure.......

if we erase our commonality and feel that someone deserves to be tortured for whatever ends, then we dehumanise ourselves.....

and there is a point where people become more inured to evil practices (like torture) because it becomes common and normal and explainable and even legal

that's the point I don't want us to reach

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 12:28 am

Blondie wrote:I really don't understand your personal attacks, but they say more about you than they do me. My point in all this was, that until there is a cheaper and more readily available energy source, gasoline is the only option most people have. If you can live without it, that's great and I do mean that, but the majority of us can't. Peace out

sendin' the love I love you

you were just as rude as me last night (until I got carried away)

and of course you realise that your mockery and ridicule provoked me so don't play all innocent

there won't be a cheaper and more readily available energy source until people 'invest' in it......(I hate that Capitalist jargon)

it's not the only option - we have to develop alternatives.....with gusto and try to save our dying planet (sorry for the super-romantic/drastic image)

but we can't use up the planet's resources so wastefully and ruin the world with our obsession with cars and oil

you want to drill for oil in Alaska - well, that seems an ugly way of dealing with the problem of expensive gas/petrol

the world is totally fukked up - oil companies are like leeches so are tobacco companies and car companies and China (the new breadbasket of the world) is amoral and greedy.......

if we are too greedy and shortsighted and ignorant enough to ruin this beautiful planet cos we want 'a cheap tank of gas'

then I won't be getting a ride with you anytime soon.......

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

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