Bin Laden is dead

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 5:35 pm

Strawberry Jam first let me say thanks for not shunning me.

But you are confusing me...what I first said was I thought pinhedz post was the best one of this thread. So to clarify what I really really meant was that the Bush haters went on and on about torture but it was waterboarding of terrorist in a secret CIA prison camp that led to binny's capture.

My point...if I had my choice between saving peoples lives or not waterboarding terrorist, I'd pick the former.

At this point I'm not sure what your point is !

Here's a picture of just one bombing alqaeda was behind...it happened in Madrid, Spain:



Shortly after 7:00 a.m. on Thursday, March 11, 2004 thirteen terrorists, boarded four separate trains to plant bombs. All of the bombs were carefully timed to go off at the exact moment each of the trains pulled into Atocha station; one by one they would be triggered by cell phones.

At about 7:20, the terrorist exit the trains leaving sports bags under their seats.

At 7:39, four bombs (planted at the front, middle, and rear of a single train) exploded just as it pulled into Atocha station. Three bombs planted on another train went off simultaneously a block away.

At 7:41 two more bombs exploded on yet another train at a nearby station, while one last bomb went off on a train at Santa Eugenia station.

A total of 177 people died at the scene, and 24 more died while under medical care; over 2,000 people were wounded. Most of the victims were students and blue-collar workers who could not afford to live in the city and so commuted from outlying neighborhoods.


BTW: the terrorist planted several more bombs that failed to go off, so the death toll of CIVILIANS could have been alot higher !

So if you think I give a rats ass about terrorist being water boarded...you must be crazy or something ! Maybe you wouldn't TORTURE terrorist to PREVENT stuff like this BUT I would ! http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  sil on Thu May 05, 2011 6:57 pm

Waterboarding is a step back.
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Old Mack on Thu May 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Old Mack wrote:
Maybe you wouldn't TORTURE terrorist to PREVENT stuff like this BUT I would !
Strawberry Jam wrote:But no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that...
I'd let all those CIVILIANS be killed and wounded rather than torture TERRORIST ???

See all those sheets...there are dead people under them or whats left of them.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  sil on Thu May 05, 2011 9:14 pm

pale


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  precinct14 on Thu May 05, 2011 9:21 pm

pinhedz wrote:
precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:"Thousands of messages" come from the kind of people that will post messages--in other words, people that do nothing.
What, you mean the kind of people that post messages with lyrics that are supposedly better than Bob Dylan's? Shocked
Good comparison--how much action are you expecting from the likes of us? Cool

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:What's needed is leadership and resources--not posting messages.
Right. Or, in the case of London's 7/7 attacks, a bomb-making kit, 4 rail tickets, 4 backpacks and a posthumous video message.
Or 9-11, just a few plane tickets and box cutters. Ed Husain seems not to understand it took a heck of a lot more than that (starting with funding the places where he was indoctrinated).

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:And those messages don't even reflect the views of the general populations of the middle eastern countries. Polls over the last 10 years show that Al Qaeda's approval rating has plunged to single digits in most countries.
So what? Did the terrorist acts of al-Qaeda reflect 'the views of the general populations of the middle eastern countries'? Didn't stop them committing them though, did it? And anyway, the 7/7 bombings had nothing to do with al-Qaeda, let alone its popularity. This beast is hydra-headed, Mr
Popularity is what Ed Husain is talking about in his article. If you don't think popularity matters, you're evidently not so kean on his article after all.

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:I remember some idiot on the stage at Woodstock announcing "This it the 5th largest army in the world." cheers

Irrelevant poppycock. Plus, Woodstock only lasted 3 days.
Not irrelevant poppycock at all. Ed Husain is claiming that a bunch of stirred up youngsters are going to rock our world, which shows he doesn't live in the real world--he lives in a think tank. Three days--yes, that's about how long it lasts.

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:This at a time when the entire movement has become almost universally unpopular (those "thousands of messages" notwithstanding).
So unpopular that its leader was able (or allowed) to spend 5 years living next door to the blue chip military academy of a Muslim country that has produced a conveyor belt of religious extremist, would-be terrorists.
I'm not seeing the connection to popularity there--but feel free to elaborate (and I thought you just dismissed popularity in your point before last--but never mind Rolling Eyes).

precinct14 wrote:
pinhedz wrote:And does the author really think that Bin Laden was the "first Saudi Martyr?" Weren't most of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudis? All were from Saudi Arabia, with the exception of Fayez Banihammad, according to the 9/11 Commission Report.
Nitpicking. Anyway, we're talking head honcho martyr here.
Then why not say "head-honcho" instead of "first?" Anyways, loss of the head honcho is more demoralizing than inspirational, unless he rises from the dead.

I'm going to keep this fairly brief, so that you don't have to re-edit your reply 4 times, like you did last time:

When Ed Husain writes that bin Laden is more dangerous dead than alive, he's making the point that there won't be any reprisal attacks if there's no reason for one. Now there is.

Your analogy between 9/11 and 7/7 is absurd, and typically disingenuous. The 9/11 terrorists needed all the funding and logistical support, not the 7/7 bombers. Three of them came from Leeds, and lived at home with their families. The 9/11 terrorist were scattered all over the US, and only came together at the end. They also depended on the flight instruction that they received in the US. The 7/7 bombers needed no funding whatsoever- nor did they have to learn how to drive a tube train. All they needed- along with the backpacks, rail tickets, and bomb-making kits- was the indoctrination, and that comes free, in the right mosque.

Husain is right. You might kill bin Laden, but you won't kill the ideology. Here's an extract from the video message of 7/7 bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan, describing his motivation:

'I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation.'

Are you trying to tell me that that motivation has disappeared, along with the threat it carries, because bin Laden is dead, and the 'general populations of the middle eastern countries' don't approve of al-Qaeda? Rolling Eyes

Now, do carry on with your sophistical waterboarding of poor old Strawberry Jam. pip pip



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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Thu May 05, 2011 10:59 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:
Old Mack wrote:http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/
I just checked the link you posted, Mack. I hope you do realize that blog is all about spreading prejudice and hatred. It's a horrible site.

Agreed, Bare Naked Islam is a bit of a clue, I wonder if Mac was looking for something else?

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Thu May 05, 2011 11:44 pm

Strawberry Jam wrote:
Old Mack wrote:http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/horrifically-graphic-photos-the-media-never-showed-you-of-the-al-qaeda-madrid-train-bombing-in-2004/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-14/
I just checked the link you posted, Mack. I hope you do realize that blog is all about spreading prejudice and hatred. It's a horrible site.

I just got here so I don't know what all the fuss if about yet

but I hope you realise SJ that realize is spelt with an s in most normal countries bounce
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 12:08 am

guacamayo wrote:I understand Mack too. Now I'm asking myself, would I torture a deplorable human being if that meant I would save say my brother from being killed for no reason? I would (and it would be a natural reaction, I think). It is not that I don't care about people who are not related to me (anyway my brother could have been killed in Madrid) but aproving torture in a society we consider civilized would be different (even if it's only applicable to terrorists who kill people indiscriminately). I wouldn't be happy to hear there is a torture camp here to prevent terrorism.

I don't believe in and strongly disavow torture no matter what results it produces

I think there is a lot more of it going on than I realise - I don't say 'we' because I'm pretty sure that most people couldn't give a flying fuk about it......

I agree with SJ (at least with what he's written) I haven't read the Lomax article yet

I was having a discussion with someone who said everybody has the potential to be evil and torture and murder people but I disagree

there's a thing called conscience - which I realise is very undeveloped in some people's minds.....

if we find it convenient to dispense with compassion, tolerance and to turn to hatred, torture, anger (I'm guilty of this sometimes) and valuing certain people over others when we reserve privileges for ourselves and our type of people

I don't believe in torturing terrorists - I don't believe in any form of cruelty against people whether they are guilty or innocent

I think every person is as valuable as the rest of them

the woman in Croatia (war criminal) tortured men for pleasure.......

if we erase our commonality and feel that someone deserves to be tortured for whatever ends, then we dehumanise ourselves.....

and there is a point where people become more inured to evil practices (like torture) because it becomes common and normal and explainable and even legal

that's the point I don't want us to reach
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 12:28 am

Blondie wrote:I really don't understand your personal attacks, but they say more about you than they do me. My point in all this was, that until there is a cheaper and more readily available energy source, gasoline is the only option most people have. If you can live without it, that's great and I do mean that, but the majority of us can't. Peace out

sendin' the love I love you

you were just as rude as me last night (until I got carried away)

and of course you realise that your mockery and ridicule provoked me so don't play all innocent

there won't be a cheaper and more readily available energy source until people 'invest' in it......(I hate that Capitalist jargon)

it's not the only option - we have to develop alternatives.....with gusto and try to save our dying planet (sorry for the super-romantic/drastic image)

but we can't use up the planet's resources so wastefully and ruin the world with our obsession with cars and oil

you want to drill for oil in Alaska - well, that seems an ugly way of dealing with the problem of expensive gas/petrol

the world is totally fukked up - oil companies are like leeches so are tobacco companies and car companies and China (the new breadbasket of the world) is amoral and greedy.......

if we are too greedy and shortsighted and ignorant enough to ruin this beautiful planet cos we want 'a cheap tank of gas'

then I won't be getting a ride with you anytime soon.......
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Doc Watson on Fri May 06, 2011 12:43 am

Catherine wrote:

a bit like old dr shoehorn - gormless
Is that a reference to me ?
If so please use my corrent id.
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 12:46 am

don't get upset with me - you've been called lots of different things......by many other people

I'd be more worried about the "gormless" bit

I'm sure people could come up with a few variations on my name too

they can if they want.......

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri May 06, 2011 12:56 am

Eric Lomax was a Japanese prisoner of war. He suffered water torture and I do not think it is the same as waterboarding (but I am happy to be corrected).

Basically Mr Lomax was placed on his back with a cloth over his face, a hosepipe at full force was then held over his nose and mouth, and his stomach filled with water, the feeling was of course that of drowning and he lost conciousness.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:01 am

Strawberry Jam wrote:Apart from the UN Convention, there's also the Geneva Convention, of course, which also outlaws torture. Please look it up yourself.

And your idea about the harmlessness of waterboarding is completely wrong. Here's the account of a British soldier who was waterboarded by the Japanese in WWII:

Eric Lomax wrote:One morning I was led out to the back of the Kempeitai building, where the simple apparatus for the historic water torture was laid out. From its availability I wondered if they used it quite often. I was laid on my back on a bench; my arms, still broken and almost useless, were placed across my chest, my face was covered by a cloth and a tap feeding a hose-pipe was turned on. It was all so simple. To encourage me to say something the senior Japanese man beat me from time to time with the branch of a tree. This did not do my arms any good at all. The interpreter, who did not seem sympathetic to the whole procedure, held my left hand. I suspected that he wanted to make sure that I remained alive.

The whole operation was a long and agonising sequence of near-drowning, choking, vomiting and muscular struggling with the water flowing with ever-changing force. To put it mildly, it was ghastly, quite the worst experience of my life. There were occasional intervals for interrogation. How long the torture lasted, I do not know. It covered a period of some days, with periods of unconsciousness and semi-consciousness.
[...]
The physical damage suffered by victims of torture can usually be repaired. But the psychological damage can never be repaired. It accompanies victims of torture throughout the rest of their lives. It certainly accompanied me for a long time until the appearance of a news item in The Daily Telegraph in 1986 intimating the establishment of a new organisation, the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture. The distinguished director, Helen Bamber, and her staff helped me enormously.
[...]
In case anyone is still in doubt whether the water torture is, or is not, torture I shall refer to a Japanese Army document, which is authoritative. I have an extract from the Japanese Secret War Service Guide, headed '”Fundamental Rules for Interrogating War Prisoners”. This was probably issued in the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in 1938. In the list of “official” tortures item No 3 reads: “Putting the person interrogated on his back (it is advisable to raise the feet a little) and dripping water into the nose and mouth simultaneously.” A later section draws attention to the importance of minimising the disturbance caused by victims' screams.
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article3476414.ece

The whole piece is well worth reading, btw.

I've never really forgiven the Japanese for their crimes against humanity Sad

there's a litany of their depravity, cruelty and evil

it was only a couple of weeks ago that I put that ghost to rest
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Doc Watson on Fri May 06, 2011 1:02 am

Catherine wrote:
I'd be more worried about the "gormless" bit
not me cos you can not prove it Katerina
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:03 am

I did notice a kind of more edgy doc watson on the science thread the other day.......Wink
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:05 am

Nah Ville Sky Chick wrote:Eric Lomax was a Japanese prisoner of war. He suffered water torture and I do not think it is the same as waterboarding (but I am happy to be corrected).

Basically Mr Lomax was placed on his back with a cloth over his face, a hosepipe at full force was then held over his nose and mouth, and his stomach filled with water, the feeling was of course that of drowning and he lost conciousness.

he was a British prisoner in a Japanese PoW camp (a few apparently)

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:05 am

Doc Watson wrote:
Catherine wrote:
I'd be more worried about the "gormless" bit
not me cos you can not prove it Katerina

that's OK - just don't call me Cathy affraid
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri May 06, 2011 1:32 am

Catherine wrote:
Nah Ville Sky Chick wrote:Eric Lomax was a Japanese prisoner of war. He suffered water torture and I do not think it is the same as waterboarding (but I am happy to be corrected).

Basically Mr Lomax was placed on his back with a cloth over his face, a hosepipe at full force was then held over his nose and mouth, and his stomach filled with water, the feeling was of course that of drowning and he lost conciousness.

he was a British prisoner in a Japanese PoW camp (a few apparently)


He was a Scottish prisoner in the British Army, convicted by the Japanese and held in a Japanese Prison, to be perfectly clear.

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:34 am

yeah, hehehe......that's right......last word, Nash.....you done it

so I suppose he wasn't a Japanese prisoner of war then

glad we got that sorted out

I am a pedant....(repeat 500 times)

he probably wasn't a Scottish prisoner in the British Army......though - hehehe sorry

I'm pretty sure the British Army didn't have any Scottish prisoners in it

if you mean he was a Scottish officer in the British Army who was imprisoned by the Japanese

I think we might be getting there

(it's so awful - I can't help myself Embarassed)

sorry....heheheh

(I'm just as tough on myself)

and what exactly do you mean by 'convicted by the Japanese' if it's not too much trouble

I realise you know a lot more about this than I do.......but things just get confused when the right meaning is not communicated

things get fukked up.....look at Pinz and P14......with their endless tit for tats......most of what they're arguing is semantics, a lot of it is bullshit, and the rest of it is vanity......

another edit to add to your collection - it seems Pinz is branching out and taking on SJ now.......good luck with that

I do like to be clear when I write.......


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri May 06, 2011 1:52 am

Catherine wrote:yeah, hehehe......that's right......last word, Nash.....you done it

so I suppose he wasn't a Japanese prisoner of war then

glad we got that sorted out

I am a pedant....(repeat 500 times)

he probably wasn't a Scottish prisoner in the British Army......though - hehehe sorry

I'm pretty sure the British Army didn't have any Scottish prisoners in it

if you mean he was a Scottish officer in the British Army who was imprisoned by the Japanese

I think we might be getting there

(it's so awful - I can't help myself Embarassed)

sorry....heheheh

(I'm just as tough on myself)

If I were to edit my posts as many times as you do, perhaps I too, could be as perfect as you?

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 1:56 am

don't worry about it - nobody cares - it's all ignorance and stupidity.......people talk complete shit and expect to be taken seriously

you won't be the first

I'm pretty glad I'm able to make myself clear (most of the editing is to add extra information on your mistakes, not mine)

I think getting the correct meaning across is probably the most effective way of using words

but I might be wrong.....
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 2:04 am

Nah Ville Sky Chick wrote:
Catherine wrote:yeah, hehehe......that's right......last word, Nash.....you done it

so I suppose he wasn't a Japanese prisoner of war then

glad we got that sorted out

I am a pedant....(repeat 500 times)

he probably wasn't a Scottish prisoner in the British Army......though - hehehe sorry

I'm pretty sure the British Army didn't have any Scottish prisoners in it

if you mean he was a Scottish officer in the British Army who was imprisoned by the Japanese

I think we might be getting there

(it's so awful - I can't help myself Embarassed)

sorry....heheheh

(I'm just as tough on myself)

If I were to edit my posts as many times as you do, perhaps I too, could be as perfect as you?

perfect clarity and communication is my goal when I write

I'm pretty sure I come across loud and clear

I don't waste words......

that's me - if you don't like it you know what you can do.......(yes, it is arrogant and I'm not proud of it...heheh...just kidding - I just think it's best to use the right word - but I realise that makes me a tosser in most people's eyes......)

take a short walk off a long pier

I mean take a long walk off a short pier

I mean......you know what I mean
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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri May 06, 2011 2:16 am

and what exactly do you mean by 'convicted by the Japanese' if it's not too much trouble


Oh, he was tried and convicted by the Japanese for having a radio and drawing a map.

You may not waste words, but you waste far too many ..............................................................

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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 2:21 am

only time will tell, guys.......

sometimes our biggest dilemmas and worries for the future never eventuate

as Shakespeare said "present fears are less than horrible imaginings..." (that quote has often been a comfort to me)

I know you've both invested in some kind of pissing contest which is far removed from what we can expect to see happen and the events that led up to whatever will happen

both of you - each in your own adorable....heheheh......way

are mucking things up.......you're both splitting hairs so much that there's no information left in what you're talking about

you've deviated so far from any real truth as you punch each others lights out

that I'm beginning to think you're not really concerned about the problem

all you're both concerned about is whose version of events is going to come out on top

a sorry reflection on the vacuity of logic when it is stretched to its limits


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Re: Bin Laden is dead

Post  ISN on Fri May 06, 2011 2:22 am

Nah Ville Sky Chick wrote:
and what exactly do you mean by 'convicted by the Japanese' if it's not too much trouble


Oh, he was tried and convicted by the Japanese for having a radio and drawing a map.

You may not waste words, but you waste far too many ..............................................................

no I don't

tried and convicted - that's a bit preposterous - if you're talking about the real meaning of the words

I don't waste words......I say exactly, completely what I mean to say.......

you may not like it - but you're the one who called Lomax a Japanese prisoner of war.....hee haw

nobody likes being wrong - I mean they don't really care about being wrong - but if someone tells them they're wrong and they are

they tend to have a bit of a tantrum.......
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