Things someone else just wanted to say......

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 2:57 pm



yerp, like we already established, Hamilton was British in his thinking and manners, not American.


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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 3:00 pm


here's one pretty cool accomplishment by the people:


https://en.wikipedia.org/

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Tue May 17, 2016 3:33 pm

Yakima Canutt wrote:yerp, like we already established, Hamilton was British in his thinking and manners, not American.
One could argue that, since it was a bunch of Brits that fought in the Revolution and wrote the Constitution and set up the government of the United States of America, maybe their notions of what's American is American.

What is it about who we are now that makes us more American?

Lots of registered voters think Democracy is American--where'd they get that idea? scratch

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 3:39 pm


i was referring to Adams' and Jefferson's and Madison's trash-talking about Hamilton

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Tue May 17, 2016 3:46 pm

Yakima Canutt wrote:
i was referring to Adams' and Jefferson's and Madison's trash-talking about Hamilton
Did they accuse Hamilton of being more British than them? Shocked

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 4:13 pm



i spose the standard take at the time was that Jefferson represented the Francophiles and Hamilton stood for the Anglophiles



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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 4:25 pm


krimbus, i just read a synopsis of the Hamilton musical and the depiction of Hamilton vs. Jefferson made me queasy

Miranda doesn't seem to even have a high school history textbook knowledge of the era

it all seems to boil down to Hamilton was a lowly bastard who made it by his wits and Jefferson was an aristocrat who owned slaves while talking about liberty so Jefferson must be very very bad and Hamilton is a hero yay!

tis funny that they want to make Hamilton a hero for the black and brown hip-hop crowd, without seeming to understand Hamilton's contempt for the common man

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 5:33 pm


now, I can see how a DC Washingtonian like pinehead would advocate for such policies but,

I WONDER IF THE NEW BATCH OF HISPANI-BLACK ALEX HAMILTON FANS UNDERSTAND:

(from the HistorySchmuck Snoodler)

Hamilton famously supported the federal government taking up the various states’ war debts, which it did in 1790.  However, he went further in insisting that the federal government never pay down the principal of this debt, but rather make continual small interest payments to the wealthy bond-holders forever.   Thus regular payments to the rich would reinforce a proper social hierarchy.

Hamilton also favored low tariffs coupled with “bounties,” or subsidies paid to the owners of industries.  He did not want protective tariffs to help small craftsmen set up independent businesses of their own, which he believed would undermine social order- he wanted bounties to keep the existing bosses firmly in control.


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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 5:50 pm


i mention not to assess fiscal policies of the 1790s but to tell Mr. Miranda that on The Great Debates of The Day, Hamilton oft advocated on behalf of the moneyed elites and Jefferson oft advocated on behalf of John Q. Farmer/John Q. Tradesman.

The fact that Plantation Jefferson was hypocritical (by contemporary standards) or that Hamilton was a bastard boy is kinda immaterial to their public policy positions, dontcha think mmkay?




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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 6:06 pm


i now realize i must craft my own epic to counter the toxically fraudulent narrative of the cur Miranda

here's one of the storyboards i have so far, brave Tommy J battles the Hamilfascists:


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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Tue May 17, 2016 6:16 pm





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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 1:09 am

^
I was going to say Tichnor paintings belong in the art area, until I realized it's Ham.

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 am

Yakima Canutt wrote:tis funny that they want to make Hamilton a hero for the black and brown hip-hop crowd, without seeming to understand Hamilton's contempt for the common man
Ham believed in a division of labor. He thought the college grads should do their jobs and the voc-tech people and farmers should do their jobs. Do you think Jefferson actually made good nails or that Tolstoy was good at harvesting wheat? Even Tolstoy admits that his peasants had to take up his slack and he didn't even last until lunch. bounce Man's gotta know his limitations.  

Ham's attitude was "I won't tell you how to cure beef and you don't tell me how to pay down the national debt." That's not contempt for the common man, that's just common sense.

But no politician would try to say that to the American voting public today--every one of us knows everything. Shocked [Maybe not everything--to fix plumbing or electricity we call a specialist, but when it comes to fixing the world, that's easy -- limitations? Hah! ]   

As for the colored folks, remember that Ham established the "New York Manumission Society" way back in the 1780s.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ham being more Anglophile and Jefferson being more Francophile sounds about right. The French revolution was kind of a mess, wasn't it?  

Back in 7th grade Sister Mary Catherine said that Jeff wanted a democracy and Ham wanted an aristocracy. She also seemed to imply that Ham saved us from getting too much Jeff, and Jeff saved us from getting too much Ham.

The pinhed sort of sided with Ham back in 7th grade, so Miranda hasn't changed anything
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Miranda plays fast and loose with some of the facts, but he also read a 700-page Ham bio.

Also, his interviews seem to suggest that his show is partly about his dad's immigrant experience, maybe moreso than Ham's.

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 3:49 am

Sample rap lyric:

"Thomas, that was a real nice declaration.
Welcome to the present, we're running a real nation.
Would you like to join us, or stay mellow,
doing whatever it is you do in Monticello?
A civics lesson from a slaver, hey neighbor,
your debts are paid because you don't pay for labor.
'We plant seeds in the South. We create!' you keep rantin',
but I think we know who's really doin' the plantin'!!"


It's ironic that Jeff's debts WERE NOT PAID. He didn't care about money, he squandered his holdings on living the good life, and passed the debt on to his offspring (it was tough times for them, sell-off time after he died and they had to deal with the situation he left them in).

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Wed May 18, 2016 6:36 am



Yes, I already understood that you are a District of Columbia Hamiltonian elitist with a feudal philosophy.

my point was that it is amusing that young "progressive" leftists are making a hero out of the conservative Hamilton and denigrating Jefferson, because they couldn't be bothered to read the entire wikipaedia bios - and their assessment of Jefferson begins and ends with him owning slaves.

And yes, Hamiltonian's view that the British should be looked on as a model was validated by Britain being far more stable than her Western Europeen neighbours during the 19th century- i am sure many term papers have been written with that thesis.

The musical Hamiltones! suggests Hammy was forgotten because of his extramarital activities, but it's more likely his legacy was harmed by the fact that his contemporaries didn't like him ... except for the gracious Jefferson who would defend dead Alex whenst he was being smeared, and of course:

Jefferson placed two busts, a likeness of himself and his political nemesis Alexander Hamilton, opposite one another in the Entrance Hall.

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 7:00 am

Yakima Canutt wrote:my point was that it is amusing that young "progressive" leftists are making a hero out of the conservative Hamilton and denigrating Jefferson, because they couldn't be bothered to read the entire wikipaedia bios - and their assessment of Jefferson begins and ends with him owning slaves.
Quite right. Don't you love it? bom  

And part of my annoyance with Jeff dates from those long-ago arguments with Grushchenka, when she would invoke the name of Jefferson to justify any kind of liberal craziness. Mad One time she said that Jeff was a Sandinista--like that's an endorsement. Shocked

But on her last visit to DC, Grushchenka said she wants the pinhed to be President (of course that was after at least one mixed drink and a half a bottle of wine drunken ).

Relative to nothing, I told Harry Truman over on that other site that I endorse Grushchenka for President. Needless to say, he gratuitously insulted her without knowing anything about her--just because of the pinhedz endorsement. Rolling Eyes

Then he dramatically announced his departure from the site, declaring that he was being picked on by mean Hamiltonian elitists. Cool


Last edited by pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Wed May 18, 2016 7:04 am

pinhedz wrote: he squandered his holdings on living the good life


Jefferson's fiscal irresponsibility is well established, but your phrase borders on calumny ... we might more accurately say he squandered his holdings bettering posterity (other than his own) with his genius, in such fields as statecraft and diplomacy! science! architecture! industry! agriculture! philosophy! rewriting the bible to make it even better!

and who could forget such as:




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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 7:10 am

Yakima Canutt wrote: ... we might more accurately say he squandered his holdings bettering posterity (other than his own) with his genius, in such fields as statecraft and diplomacy! science! architecture! industry! agriculture! philosophy! rewriting the bible to make it even better!
That's my definition of the good life--isn't it yours? Shocked

A lot of it was just reading. He had a really, really nice library. I spent a whole day there recently, talking to the wise men about the Great Man. I think he was basically a good egg and very brainy and visionary, but for me the scale still tips to the Ham side.

And I wouldn't brush off the point that Ham was pushing manumission while Jeff still had over 130 slaves to support his leisure perfuits.

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Wed May 18, 2016 7:21 am

pinhedz wrote:
That's my definition of the good life--isn't it yours? Shocked

I thought you were referring to his other pursuits like such as

1818- "in nothing have the habits of the palate more decisive influence than in our relish of wines." His own habits had been formed over thirty years before — at the tables of Parisian philosophes and in the vineyards of Burgundy and Bordeaux. Before his journey to France in 1784, Jefferson, like most of his countrymen, had been a consumer of Madeira and port, with the occasional glass of "red wine." As he recalled in 1817, "[T]he taste of this country [was] artificially created by our long restraint under the English government to the strong wines of Portugal and Spain." The revolution in his own taste in wine followed swiftly on the breaking of the bonds of British colonial government. Thereafter Jefferson rejected the alcoholic wines favored by Englishmen as well as the toasts that customarily accompanied them. He chose to drink and serve the fine lighter wines of France and Italy, and hoped that his countrymen would follow his example.

While it is often difficult to distinguish the wines Jefferson preferred for the sake of his own palate from those he purchased for the comfort of his dinner guests, the quotations that follow should help to identify some of his personal favorites, as well as to illustrate the standards of reference for his taste in wine and his efforts to redeem the taste of his countrymen.

1803. Writing to a correspondent in Spain, Jefferson confessed that a certain pale sherry had "most particularly attached my taste to it. I now drink nothing else, and am apprehensive that if I should fail in the means of getting it, it will be a privation which I shall feel sensibly once a day."

1806. Jefferson described a recent shipment of Nebbiolo, a sparkling wine of the Italian Piedmont, as "superlatively fine."4 This importation proceeded from his memory of drinking Nebbiolo in Turin in 1787, when he described it as "about as sweet as the silky Madeira, as astringent on the palate as Bordeaux, and as brisk as Champagne. It is a pleasing wine."

When paying a bill for three pipes of Termo, a Lisbon wine drier and lighter than ordinary port, Jefferson said that "this provision for my future comfort" had been sent to Monticello to ripen.

1815. By this time, after years of war had prevented importation, Jefferson's stock of aged Lisbon and leftovers from the President's House was exhausted. Writing to a Portuguese wine merchant in Norfolk, he said, "Disappointments in procuring supplies have at length left me without a drop of wine. I must therefore request you to send me a quarter cask of the best you have. Termo is what I would prefer; and next to that good port. besides the exorbitance of price to which Madeira has got, it is a wine which I do not drink, being entirely too powerful. wine from long habit has become an indispensable for my health, which is now suffering by it’s disuse."

For his major supply, he wrote to Stephen Cathalan, the American agent at Marseilles:

I resume our old correspondence with a declaration of wants. the fine wines of your region of country are not forgotten, nor the friend thro’ whom I used to obtain them. and first the white Hermitage of M. Jourdan of Tains, of the quality having ‘un peu de la liqueur’ as he expressed it, which we call silky, soft, smooth, in contradistinction to the dry, hard or rough. what I had from M. Jourdan of this quality was barely a little sweetish, so as to be sensible and no more; and this is exactly the quality I esteem. Next comes the red wine of Nice, such as my friend mr Sasserno sent me, which was indeed very fine. that country being now united with France, will render it easier for you I hope to order it to Marseilles. There is a 3d kind of wine which I am less able to specify to you with certainty by it’s particular name. I used to meet with it at Paris under the general term of Vin rouge de Roussillon; and it was usually drunk after the repast as a vin de liqueur, as were the Pacharetti sec, & Madeire sec: and it was in truth as dry as they were, but a little higher colored. I remember I then thought it would please the American taste, as being dry and tolerably strong. I suppose there may be many kinds of wine of Roussillon; but I never saw any but of that particular quality used at Paris. I am certain it will be greatly esteemed here, being of high flavor, not quite so strong as Pacharetti or Madeire or Xeres, but yet of very good body, sufficient to bear well our climate.

The Hermitage, which he had regularly imported while President, was described by Jefferson in 1791 as "the first wine in the world without a single exception."9 The Bellet from Nice he called "the most elegant every day wine in the world." The Roussillon, which he continued to import, was evidently bought for the sake of his guests as an intermediate stage in the Madeira weaning process.

1816. "[F]or the present I confine myself to the physical want of some good Montepulciano ... , this being a very favorite wine, and habit having rendered the light and high flavored wines a necessary of life with me." Jefferson had imported this red Tuscan wine as President and had declared an 1805 shipment "most superlatively good."

1817. Jefferson gave the state of North Carolina credit for producing "the first specimen of an exquisite wine," Scuppernong, and praised its "fine aroma, and chrystalline transparence."13 Writing to his agent in Marseilles about a recent shipment of Ledanon, a wine produced near the Pont du Gard, Jefferson declared it "excellent" and said it "recalled to my memory what I had drunk at your table 30. years ago, and I am as partial to it now as then."14 Elsewhere he described this vin de liqueur as having "something of the port character but higher flavored, more delicate, less rough."

Speaking of the French wines of Hermitage, Ledanon, Roussillon, and Nice, he stated that he was "anxious to introduce here these fine wines in place of the alcoholic wines of Spain and Portugal; and the universal approbation of all who taste them at my table will, I am persuaded, turn by degrees the current of demand from this part of our country, [an]d that it will continue to spread de proche en proche. the delicacy and innocence of these wines will change the habit from the coarse & inebriating kinds hitherto only known here." He added that he would order the white Hermitage only occasionally, it "being chiefly for a bonne bouche."

1819. No single letter provides a better statement of Jefferson's drinking habits, his tasting vocabulary, and his efforts to convert his fellow Americans than one written on May 26 to Stephen Cathalan:

... I will explain to you the terms by which we characterise different qualities of wines. they are 1. sweet wines, such as Frontignan & Lunel of France, Pacharetti doux of Spain, Calcavallo of Portugal, la vin du Cap Etc. 2. Acid wines, such as the Vins de Graves, du Rhin, de Hocheim Etc. 3. dry wines, having not the least either of sweetness or of acidity in them, as Madere sec, Pacharetti sec vin d’Oporto, Etc. and the Ledanon which I call a dry wine also. 4. silky wines, which are in truth a compound in their taste of the dry wine dashed with a little sweetness, barely sensible to the palate. the silky Madeira which we sometimes get here, is made so by putting a small portion of Malmsey into the dry Madeira. there is another quality of wine which we call rough, or astringent, and you also, I believe, call it astringent, which is often found in both the dry & the silky wines. there is something of this quality for example in the Ledanon, and a great deal of it in the vin d’Oporto, which is not only dry, but astringent approaching almost to bitterness. our vocabulary of wines being thus explained, I will observe that the wine of Nice sent me by mr Spreafico in 1816. was silky and a little astringent and was the most delicious wine I ever tasted, and the most esteemed here generally. that of 1817. was entirely dry, moderately astringent and a very good wine; about on a footing with Ledanon. that of 1818. last recieved, has it’s usual astringency indeed, but is a little acid, so much so as to destroy it’s usual good flavor. had it come in the summer I should have suspected it’s having acquired that acidity by fretting in the hold of the ship, or in our hot warehouses on a summer passage. but it was shipped at Marseilles in October, the true time for shipping delicate wines for this country. I will now say why I go into these details with you. in the first place you are not to conclude that I am become a buveur my measure is a perfectly sober one of 3. or 4. glasses at dinner, & not a drop at any other time. but as to these 3. or 4. glasses Je suis bien friand. I go however into these details because in the art, by mixing genuine wines, of producing any flavor desired, which mr Bergasse possesses so perfectly, I think it probable he has prepared wines of this character also; that is to say of a compound flavor of the rough, dry, and sweet, or rather of the rough and silky; or if he has not, I am sure he can. the Ledanon, for example, which is dry and astringent, with a proper proportion of a wine which is sweet and astringent, would resemble the wine of Bellet sent me in 1816. by mr Spreafico. if he has any wines of this quality, I would thank you to add samples of 2. or 3. bottles of each of those he thinks approaches this description nearest. . . . I have labored long and hard to procure the reduction of duties on the lighter wines, which is now effected to a certain degree. I have labored hard also in persuading others to use those wines. habit yields with difficulty. perhaps the late diminution of duties may have a good effect. I have added to my list of wines this year 50. bottles of vin muscat blanc de Lunel. I should much prefer a wine which should be sweet and astringent. but I know of none. if you know of any, not too high priced I would thank you to substitute it instead of the Lunel.

Unfortunately Henri Bergasse, a producer of blended wines, did not make the desired wine and the death of Cathalan prevented a personal response to Jefferson's request for the perfect "rough and silky" wine. Cathalan's successor sent samples of several wines and from these Jefferson selected a Clairette de Limoux, which he found "much to our taste" and continued to order, but which does not seem to have satisfied his personal quest for perfection.

1826. With the exception of a "sufficient" quantity of Scuppernong, all the wines on hand in the Monticello cellar at the time of Jefferson's death came from southern France: red Ledanon, white Limoux, Muscat de Rivesalte, and a Bergasse imitation red Bordeaux. This cellar list and the preceding letters seem to confirm evidence of family members and visitors to Monticello that, at least in his later years, Jefferson drank wine at table only after the completion of the meal, in the English manner. His habits still reflected his British heritage but his tastes were international. High in flavor but low in alcohol, the wines of France and Italy were the perfect accompaniment to social pleasure and the "true restorative cordial," as he designated both wine and friendship.





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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Wed May 18, 2016 7:25 am

Yakima Canutt wrote:
pinhedz wrote:
That's my definition of the good life--isn't it yours? Shocked

I thought you were referring to his other pursuits like such as
Yes--that too, of course. Very Happy

[see the "Great wines under $8.00" thread]

I regret to report that during my visit I found the enormous wine cellar to be empty. Crying or Very sad
_______________________________________________________________________

It is perhaps worthy of note that Miranda does not ignore Hamilton's faults--one of which was that he could really tic people off. For example, he didn't make any friends with this kind of talk:

"And another thing, mister "age-of-enlightenment"
Don't lecture me about the war, you didn't fight in it
You think I'm frightened of you, man? We almost died in a trench
While you were off gettin' high with the French!"

"Thomas Jefferson, always hesitant with the president
Reticent, there isn't a plan he doesn't jettison
Madison, you mad as a hatter, so take your medicine
Damn, you in worse shape than the national debt is in!"

"Sittin' there useless as two shits
Hey, turn around, bend over, I'll show you where where my shoe fits"

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Thu May 19, 2016 5:22 am




I didn’t want to debate the Hamiltonian, there was enuff of that with Mrs. Krabappel, but the apple-sauce in this Topic area has given me no choice.

There are non sequiturs about Tolstoy farming and peasants setting national fiscal policy, but these are neither here nor there. We find an incantation in regards to Hamilton – “let the smarties rule and the dumbs toil” – well yes, that is the general idea for social clusters.

But this would suggest Hamiltonian advocated a meritocracy, when truly his system would be called a plutocracy (and I not talking about a playful cartoon pup).

Hamiltonian thought the state should encourage people to stay in the social class they were born into (Professor Snape will say “yay” because the rich are going to be smarter aren’t they, but we need to keep in mind the process by which fortuned families often become more useless with each successive generation).

Let us take an example – Hamilton thought the state should subsidize bigtime wheelrights and hinder startup wheelrights, because social mobility is messy.

So thus Hams wasn’t about “let the smarties thrive” – a level playing field would let the best and smartest wheelrights rise and flourish, but Hams didn’t want that – he wanted everyone to stay in their place as designated by birth – it is in this sense that he could be called British.  We might remark on the irony of a lowly bastard holding these views, but Hamilton conforms to the common neurosis of  the desperate social climber.  

It was Jefferson who advocated for a meritocracy, for a public educational system that would identify the smartest ones from the boondocks and bring them up, so the rich bloaters would have some proper competition, and thereby the nation- she is strengthened.

In Notes on the State of Virginia (1781), Jefferson summarized:

This bill proposes to lay off every county into small districts of five or six miles square, called hundreds, and in each of them to establish a school for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. The tutor to be supported by the hundred, and every person in it entitled to send their children three years gratis, and as much longer as they please, paying for it. These schools to be under a visitor [i.e., superintendent], who is annually to choose the boy of best genius in the school, of those whose parents are too poor to give them further education, and to send him forward to one of the grammar schools [high schools, in effect] of which twenty are proposed to be erected in different parts of [Virginia], for teaching Greek, Latin, geography, and the higher branches of numerical arithmetic. Of the boys thus sent in any one year, trial is to be made at the grammar schools one or two years, and the best genius of the whole selected, and continued six years, and the residue dismissed. By this means twenty of the best geniuses will be raked from the rubbish annually, and be instructed, at the public expence, so far as the grammar schools go.


The next stage of this filtering process, Jefferson goes on to explain, occurs when half the students supported at public expense in grammar schools are dismissed after six years, perhaps to become teachers themselves. The remaining students then receive scholarships to study for three years at the College of William and Mary. (For various reasons, Jefferson later became disillusioned with his alma mater and substituted the University of Virginia, which he founded in 1819, instead.)

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 19, 2016 1:51 pm

Those specific examples would seem to suggest that Jeff was more meritocratous than Ham. But the pinhed is reluctant to jump to that conclusion without casting a wider net. Suspect

Also, the pinhed thinks Jeff has been the one on the pedestal for long enough. bounce

So, who's face would you like to see on the $tenner$?

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Thu May 19, 2016 3:51 pm

Yakima Canutt wrote:There are non sequiturs about Tolstoy farming ...
I don't see how that's a non sequitur. If Tolstoy wanted to be good for anything out in the wheat field, he would have had to give up writing and focus on his outdoor skills. One person can't do everything.

Count Nicholas Rostov was angrily chewed out by his peasant dog-master for ruining the fox hunt with his incompetence. The peasant dog-master was right about the Count's incompetence, but in fairness to the Count, he couldn't dedicate himself to fox hunting full time so as to become as proficient as the peasant dog-master.

It's pretty obvious that to be good at anything you have to put in the hours of practice and/or study -- which means you will be forced to neglect other fields in which you might otherwise have become proficient. I wish I could play the Tchaikowsky violin concerto, but I never made it past the first half page.

So where do people get the idea that by googling up some canned talking points they suddenly become experts on everything under the sun? Shocked I know people with PhDs (non-science) from ivy league colleges that get their climate info from www.skepticalscience.com . Mad

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  pinhedz on Fri May 20, 2016 5:09 am

"From each according to his abilities--details to be determined."

-- who said that?

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

Post  Yakima Canutt on Fri May 20, 2016 6:56 am

pinhedz wrote:

Also, the pinhed thinks Jeff has been the one on the pedestal for long enough. bounce



yeahbut i've been reading the tea leaves, and it seems that the future brownblackyellow America isn't just going to knock TJ off his pedestal, they are going to permanently cast Thomas Jefferson as Jefferson Davis

i saw a quasi-prominent black journalist tweet "The only Jefferson that matters to me is George."

(to those who have never owned a television set, George Jefferson was a fictional negro TV character of the 1970s) afro

Yakima Canutt

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Re: Things someone else just wanted to say......

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