Immortality

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Would you like to be immortal?

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Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:23 am

From my silly post in the science versus religion thread I've come to read this about Unamuno:
"Main themes in Unamuno's work are the conflict between life and thought, the tension between reason and Christian faith, and the tragedy of death in man's life, the horrendous void of non-being, in which reason offers no consolation. As a philosopher Unamuno did not create a systematic presentation of his thought. He objected strongly to academic philosophers and stressed that the deepest of all human desires is the hunger for personal immortality against all our rational knowledge of life."

I'm not sure if I'd like to be immortal. I don't know if we die and there's no afterlife but (I think) I have assimilated/accepted it (it has taken me really a lot of years since I started thinking about it). Somehow now, I even see the no after life as a blessing. But there's something about not-being that I find too difficult to even understand.

So what would cause you more horror
to have to live forever
or to stop being (forever)?

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:29 am

I am also thinking that we need goals in life (some people more than others). Even if you want to "enjoy" life while it lasts, if we know in the end we are not even going to remember what we've lived... isn't it a bit like taking away the goal? (Not that the goal should be in afterlife- no ) I feel like something's missing.

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:41 am

In his book "The Myth of Sisyphus," Albert Camus proposes that the human condition (which you might summarize as "Life's a bitch, and then you die") is an absurd situation, and he poses the question "Why don't we just kill ourselves?"

His answer is that the "absurd man" is an incorrigible rebel, who refuses to accept his condition, even though he knows that there is no escape from it.

So, you live your life just out of stubborn, ornery cussedness.

And Sisyphus is happy with his rock, because it's his very own rock. cheers

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:46 am

Vera Cruz wrote:I am also thinking that we need goals in life (some people more than others). Even if you want to "enjoy" life while it lasts, if we know in the end we are not even going to remember what we've lived... isn't it a bit like taking away the goal? (Not that the goal should be in afterlife- no ) I feel like something's missing.
Your goal could be to be satisfied with your life when it's at it's end. You will either be thinking "screwing all those poor people has profited me nothing," or you might be thinking "I'm a goner, but I done good."

Rulers in ancient times used to have great respect for the poets and historical chroniclers. Some rulers were terrified of them, because their only hope at the end of their lives was that good things might be written about them.

A cure for cancer, or some other brilliant invention benefitting mankind, would be a good thing to go out on.

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:51 am

I'm not sure the poll has my response as one of the choices. I'd say "No, and it would be a horror ... maybe." geek

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:09 am

pinhedz wrote:In his book "The Myth of Sisyphus," Albert Camus proposes that the human condition (which you might summarize as "Life's a bitch, and then you die") is an absurd situation, and he poses the question "Why don't we just kill ourselves?"

His answer is that the "absurd man" is an incorrigible rebel, who refuses to accept his condition, even though he knows that there is no escape from it.

So, you live your life just out of stubborn, ornery cussedness.

And Sisyphus is happy with his rock, because it's his very own rock. cheers
I'm reading the book begins with this by Pindaro:

"Not you eagerness, soul mine, by an immortal life, but worries the feasible resource"
(in Spanish - "No te afanes, alma mía, por una vida inmortal, pero agota el ámbito de lo posible")

I like that cat

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:17 am

"The myth of Sísifo

The title of the test comes from a afflicted personage of Greek Mythology . In him, Camus discusses to the question of the suicide and the value of the life, presenting/displaying the myth of Sísifo like metaphor of the useless and incessant effort of the modern man, who consumes his life in squalid and dehumanized factories and offices.

Of this form Philosophy of absurd raises, that maintains that our lives are insignificant and they do not have more value than than we created. Being the so trivial world, Camus it asks, alternative what is to Suicide ? The test begins: is but no a really serious philosophical problem: the suicide .

Sísifo, within Greek Mythology, like Prometheus, made get upset to the Gods by its extraordinary cleverness. Like punishment, it was condemned to lose the view and to push perpetually Rocky crag giant mountain arrives thus until the top, only so that it returned to fall rolling until the valley, and indefinitely.

Camus develops the idea of " man absurdo", or with one " sensitivity absurda". He is that one that is perpetually conscious of the complete uselessness of its life. This one, affirms, is the unique acceptable alternative to the unjustifiable jump of faith that forms the base of all the religions (and even of Existencialismo, that therefore Camus did not accept completely). Taking advantage numerous philosophical and literary sources, and particularly Dostoievski, Camus describe the historical progress of bring back to consciousness of the absurd one and conclude that Sísifo is definitive the absurd hero.

In its test, Camus affirms that Sísifo undergoes the freedom during a brief moment, when it has finished pushing the rocky crag and not yet it must begin again down. In that point, Camus felt that Sísifo, in spite of being blind, knew that the views of the landscape were there and must it have found edifying: " One must imagine happy to Sísifo", it declares, reason why it saves apparently it of his suicidal destiny.

The work closes with an appendix on the work of Franz Kafka, interpreted finally of similar way, in terms of a esteticismo, to its way, hopeful."
http://www.myetymology.com/encyclopedia/The_myth_of_S%C3%ADsifo.html

Is it, The Myth of Sisyphus, difficult to read, Pinhedz?
(They have it in the library)

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:23 am

Part of it is difficult. For me, there was a stretch of about 8 pages, near the end, that I had to reread a number of times until I felt I'd understood it.

The key is to not continue until you've understood what you've read. scratch geek Sleep What a Face

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:26 am

I'd say it's easier than Kant's Kritik of Pure Reason.

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:37 am

Vera Cruz wrote:"Not you eagerness, soul mine, by an immortal life, but worries the feasible resource"
(in Spanish - "No te afanes, alma mía, por una vida inmortal, pero agota el ámbito de lo posible")


Let's try that again ...

"It is not for you, my soul, to strive for eternal life, but rather to strive for that which is possible."

How's that...anywhere close? geek



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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:37 am

Yes, pinhedz's English version is more understandable for me alien

now try it in Russian... confused

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:01 am

I'll have to use latin letters:
Tebe, moya dusha, net stremlyat'sya k vechnoy zhizni, a stremlyat'sya k vozmozhnomu.

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Re: Immortality

Post  eddie on Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:45 pm

pinhedz wrote:"No, and it would be a horror ... maybe." geek

The third book of Swift's Gulliver's Travels describes (amongst other strange encounters) a race of humanoids who do indeed live forever- and it is indeed a horror: no escape from all the infirmities of age and decay. From memory, I think the race in question are the Strublungs- or something like that.

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:25 pm

My mother is a bit strange, I think, because she believes in God and she also believes that death is the end (and it doesn't worry her). I ask her "why do you have a God then?". She answers that she likes to think there's someone helping us. She doesn't say anything about moral, I think, because she knows we don't need a God for that.

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Re: Immortality

Post  Andy on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48 pm

Friedrich Nietzsche, "The gay science" wrote:
341 The greatest weight.

—What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine." If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you are or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, "Do you desire this once more and innumerable times more?" would lie upon your actions as the greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:21 am

Sorry for my ignorance. But the eternal return was expressed by Nietzsche and he himself thinks of it as something horrible? (I'm only asking).

It would be good to think in a way that your actions are important (that you are destined?) but to think they are eternally repeated is too much.

I remember when we studied philosophy in high school our teacher asked us what we preferred: to be destined or to have ground to "change" things. We answer the latter. (I feel I repeat myself on the same subject always but) I like to think now that what we are "destined" and that happiness is to say yes to it.

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:36 am

This is something that I have thought many times, that I only find beauty in necessity.

Now I should shut up before I keep raving on... alien

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:16 am

If a 5-year-old asks for a puppy, and you tell him he can have one, but not until he is 6, that 1-year wait is 1/5 of his lifetime--which is like waiting forever.

But if you're 50 years old, one year is only 2% of a lifetime, so you could put yourself on a 1-year waiting list for something and your turn will come up before you know it.

If you were 1000 years old, a year's wait would probably feel like about a week. If you were millions or billions of years old, centuries would eventually be passing like seconds.

But no matter how fast time passed, there would never be any progress toward the "end," because there is no end.

This question is actually a reformulation of the "ZERO X INFINITY" question. So, because infinity is not a number, the answer to the question (just as in mathematics) is ... UNDEFINED. geek

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:20 am

Now I understand why I posted this thread in the science section...

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Re: Immortality

Post  Andy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:47 pm

Vera Cruz wrote:Sorry for my ignorance. But the eternal return was expressed by Nietzsche and he himself thinks of it as something horrible? (I'm only asking).

Yes, so it would seem.

And thus, we come back to his own conclusion about Socrates in what is probably my favourite of his aphorisms:

Nietzsche, The gay science, 340" wrote:
340. The Dying Socrates
- I admire the courage and wisdom of Socrates in all that he did, said and did not say. This mocking and amorous demon and rat catcher of Athens, who made the most* insolent youths tremble and sob, was not only the wisest babbler that has ever lived, but was just as great in his silence. I would that he had also been silent in the last moment of his life, perhaps he might then have belonged to a still higher order of intellects. Whether it was death, or the poison, or piety, or wickedness something or other loosened his tongue at that moment, and he said: "O Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepios." For him who has ears, this ludicrous and terrible "last word" implies: "O Crito, life is a long sickness!" Is it possible! A man like him, who had lived cheerfully and to all appearance as a soldier, was a pessimist! He had merely put on a good demeanour towards life, and had all along concealed his ultimate judgment, his profoundest sentiment! Socrates, Socrates had suffered from life! And he also took his revenge for it with that veiled, fearful, pious, and blasphemous phrase! Had even a Socrates to revenge himself? Was there a grain too little of magnanimity in his superabundant virtue? Ah, my friends! We must surpass even the Greeks!

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Re: Immortality

Post  Andy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:49 pm

pinhedz wrote:If a 5-year-old asks for a puppy, and you tell him he can have one, but not until he is 6, that 1-year wait is 1/5 of his lifetime--which is like waiting forever.

But if you're 50 years old, one year is only 2% of a lifetime, so you could put yourself on a 1-year waiting list for something and your turn will come up before you know it.

If you were 1000 years old, a year's wait would probably feel like about a week. If you were millions or billions of years old, centuries would eventually be passing like seconds.

But no matter how fast time passed, there would never be any progress toward the "end," because there is no end.

This question is actually a reformulation of the "ZERO X INFINITY" question. So, because infinity is not a number, the answer to the question (just as in mathematics) is ... UNDEFINED. geek

Except for the fact that most people who belief in a form of afterlife that is related to the notion of some sort of eternal existence would probably argue that this existence is situated without the space-time continuüm.
For some reason it sounds a tad silly to speak of the 'age' of an immortal soul - should such a thing exist, of course.

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Yes, they speak of the soul (not in terms of age)... but what kind of life after life do they want or expect?

Like Leonard Cohen said (talking to Lady Midnight):
"whatever you give me
I seem to need so much more"


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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:14 am

^ Knowing the little I know about it I dislike Plato because of the world of forms or ideas. I don't like that he situated the highest form of reality outside the reality we live in.
Is my disliking too ignorant?

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Re: Immortality

Post  Guest on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:22 am

Andy wrote:
Nietzsche, The gay science, 340" wrote:
Whether it was death, or the poison, or piety, or wickedness something or other loosened his tongue at that moment, and he said: "O Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepios." For him who has ears, this ludicrous and terrible "last word" implies: "O Crito, life is a long sickness!" Is it possible! A man like him, who had lived cheerfully and to all appearance as a soldier, was a pessimist! He had merely put on a good demeanour towards life, and had all along concealed his ultimate judgment, his profoundest sentiment! Socrates, Socrates had suffered from life!
Unamuno, with whom I started this thread, said: "A man does not die of love or his liver or even of old age; he dies of being a man."

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Re: Immortality

Post  pinhedz on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:41 am

Andy wrote:
pinhedz wrote:If a 5-year-old asks for a puppy, and you tell him he can have one, but not until he is 6, that 1-year wait is 1/5 of his lifetime--which is like waiting forever.

But if you're 50 years old, one year is only 2% of a lifetime, so you could put yourself on a 1-year waiting list for something and your turn will come up before you know it.

If you were 1000 years old, a year's wait would probably feel like about a week. If you were millions or billions of years old, centuries would eventually be passing like seconds.

But no matter how fast time passed, there would never be any progress toward the "end," because there is no end.

This question is actually a reformulation of the "ZERO X INFINITY" question. So, because infinity is not a number, the answer to the question (just as in mathematics) is ... UNDEFINED. geek

Except for the fact that most people who belief in a form of afterlife that is related to the notion of some sort of eternal existence would probably argue that this existence is situated without the space-time continuüm.
For some reason it sounds a tad silly to speak of the 'age' of an immortal soul - should such a thing exist, of course.
I wasn't talking about an immortal soul--I was talking about living forever.

I don't believe we have any concept of existence outside the space-time continuum.


Last edited by pinhedz on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Immortality

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