Albert Einstein

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Albert Einstein

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:25 pm

Seems he may have got it wrong geek

_________________
"Celine Dion and Oprah have given more to the world than any living member of the british royal family." - Captain Hi-Top

Nah Ville Sky Chick
Miss Whiplash

Posts : 580
Join date : 2011-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  felix on Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:52 pm

Don't we all, on occasion?

felix
cool cat - mrkgnao!

Posts : 831
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : see the chicken?

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  Andy on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:01 pm

Than again, maybe not:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034852

Andy
Non scolae sed vitae discimus

Posts : 215
Join date : 2011-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  Nah Ville Sky Chick on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:16 pm

felix wrote:Don't we all, on occasion?

You're not wrong Very Happy

_________________
"Celine Dion and Oprah have given more to the world than any living member of the british royal family." - Captain Hi-Top

Nah Ville Sky Chick
Miss Whiplash

Posts : 580
Join date : 2011-04-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:31 pm

This is one of those zero-times-infinity things: if a neutrino reaches the speed of light, the energy it deposits at the sensor would be infinite (unless, of course, the Lorentz transformation is wrong affraid ).

The scientists need to tell us (since they are asking for our help geek ) how much energy they are measuring at the receiving end. Suspect

pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  Lee Van Queef on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:12 pm

I thought that is how this stuff works? Someone is arrogant enough to say something is 100% fact and prove it. Then a few years later, that fact is proven to no longer be the case.

I'm talking out of my arse here, but rather than saying 'nothing can travel faster than light', why don't they say 'I dare someone to find something faster than light, I don't think it's possible, but it bloody well could be?' Or did he say that anyway? What a Face

Lee Van Queef

Posts : 511
Join date : 2011-04-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  Lee Van Queef on Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:41 pm

Andy wrote:Than again, maybe not:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034852


Lee Van Queef

Posts : 511
Join date : 2011-04-15

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:16 pm

TickleCockBridge wrote: ... rather than saying 'nothing can travel faster than light', why don't they say 'I dare someone to find something faster than light, ...
That's what he did say; that's what all scientists say (to be proven wrong is progress).

But, the measurements of neutrino velocities are not being presented as "proof." They are being presented as: "Yo--check this out; can anybody explain what's going on with these measurements?"

This whole thing could be a false alarm, like "cold fusion."

BTW--microwaves traveling through wave guides interfere with each other in a way that creates a so-called "phase velocity," which I often faster than light. But since "phase" doesn't have mass, the Lorentz Transformation is still intact.

btw--Lorentz was before Einstein.

pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:04 pm




pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  eddie on Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:54 pm

Speed of light theory challenged
Press Association



Scientists are becoming more confident that they will be able to contradict Einstein's assertion that nothing can travel faster than light, after carrying out another test.

Italian physicists first made the startling claim in September but have now repeated an adapted version of their experiment, which produced the same result.

The test suggests that sub-atomic particles called neutrinos can break the barrier. If such tests can be repeated, they would challenge one of the fundamental assumptions of modern physics.

Scientists have submitted their latest findings to the Journal of High Energy Physics for consideration. They said that they had waited until now to submit the paper to take into account suggestions from other scientists and carry out a new test.

They beamed neutrinos through 730 kilometres (454 miles) of rock from the nuclear research facility Cern in Switzerland to Gran Sasso, Italy.

A light beam would take 2.4 milliseconds to travel the distance - but both experiments have shown a neutrino can beat it there by 60 billionths of a second.

In 1905, Albert Einstein stated in his theory of special relativity that nothing can travel faster than a light beam in a vacuum - 168,282 miles per second. According to the theory, it would take an infinite amount of energy to exceed light speed.

The tests were carried out by Opera - the Oscillation Project with Emulsion Tracking Apparatus. Fernando Ferroni, president of the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics, said: "A measurement so delicate and carrying a profound implication on physics requires an extraordinary level of scrutiny.

"The experiment Opera, thanks to a specially adapted Cern beam, has made an important test of consistency of its result.The positive outcome of the test makes us more confident in the result, although a final word can only be said by analogous measurements performed elsewhere in the world."

Physicists in Japan will now try to repeat the experiment, with the help of scientists from Liverpool University. Professor Themis Bowcock, head of the university's particle physics team, said: "Should neutrinos travel faster than light, it would overthrow our ideas of the structure of space and time."

eddie
The Gap Minder

Posts : 7840
Join date : 2011-04-11
Age : 60
Location : Desert Island

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:50 am

Update--the scientists seem to have found the loose cable connection that caused the erroneous velocity measurement. Razz

I'll see if I can get the details out of the chagrined researchers--or maybe LaRue will report back to us first. Smile

pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:10 pm

The media like it when people go nuts--but here's an article from a sane blogger--Faye Flan--that predates the new experimental findings:

'It’s amazing to see the anti-science spins some people attached to the headlines last fall that physicists had observed faster-than-light travel. The alleged speed limit violators were invisible particles called neutrinos that CERN physicists sent in a beam 646 miles through the ground. The particles appeared to travel that distance 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light.

Neutrinos are a very hard-to-observe form of matter, first postulated by Enrico Fermi in the 1930s to explain why a small amount of mass seemed to be carried away from nuclear reactions. The first neutrinos were detected in the 1950s.

They’re generated in the sun and other stars in enormous quantities - 100 billion neutrinos zoom through a spot the size of your thumbnail every second. At night, they stream through the Earth and come out the other side. They’re not only invisible but they tend to pass through matter without leaving a sign.

Some commentators, such as Charles Krauthammer, reported that physicists were upset, even devastated by this result and reluctant to accept the idea because it violated special relativity and they revere Einstein.

This is hardly the case. Scientists were skeptical because it was a single, unconfirmed result that involved complicated equipment and indirect measurements. Indeed, the latest press release from CERN suggests some mechanical glitches that might have fooled the physicists into thinking they’d detected faster-than-light travel. A mistake is what most physicists suspected all along:

The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have an influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino's time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that brings the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are scheduled for May.

It's true that the initial results would have violated Einstein’s 1905 theory of special relativity, which showed that the speed of light is constant (in a vacuum), while time and space can expand and contract. According to Einstein, faster-than-light travel allows reversals of cause and effect. It would be possible, for example, to see a crime scene in which the victim collapsed from a bullet wound before the shooter fired.

The result also contradicted measurements scientists have made of neutrinos travelling a much longer distance, from a supernova that exploded in 1987. Those neutrinos travelled 168,000 light years and arrived no faster than expected.

Penn physicist Gene Beier said other labs in the United States and Japan are already gearing up to try to confirm the original result. They may continue their experiments, and everything will eventually get sorted out. Yes, physicists were reluctant to embrace the initial result, but they were willing to put in the effort to get a more definitive answer. “I think most scientists are quite open-minded and are prepared to deal with any deviation from what might be the current orthodoxy,” he said, “but it has to be supported by experiments and those experiments have to be believable.

If the neutrino result is wrong, it should serve as a cautionary note about other single studies, especially those involving health or human behavior. Single studies with counter-intuitive results are often trumpeted by press releases, and these days press releases go directly to the public rather than getting investigated by journalists.

In the unlikely event the original result is correct and neutrinos really did violate the speed limit, Einstein’s legacy will be fine. Relativity works under most circumstances – the GPS in your phone wouldn’t work if it was completely wrong. But if the faster-than-light neutrinos were real, they might lead physicists to a bigger, more all-encompassing theory. There are already known discrepancies between Einstein’s theory and quantum mechanics, which describes matter at a sub-atomic level. So we know there’s something more out there. Physics isn’t finished describing the universe yet. Einstein would almost certainly be pleased."


Last edited by pinhedz on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  pinhedz on Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:15 pm

Here's a long nerdy article:

http://profmattstrassler.com/2012/03/16/this-time-icarus-really-does-refute-opera/

But here is the essence:

"... this time ICARUS refutes OPERA. Essentially, they did the same measurement as OPERA-2, as I called the short-pulse variant of OPERA’s original experiment. They took data at the same time as OPERA-2, in the same neutrino beam, in the same laboratory. It took them a while to do all the distance and timing calibrations that OPERA had done many months ago, but they’re finished now. And whereas OPERA-2 gets the same result as OPERA-1— an early arrival of 60 nanoseconds (billionths of a second) — ICARUS finds a result consistent with an on-time arrival. Same measurement, different answer. At least one experiment made a mistake; and one result is vastly more plausible than the other, so I think the consensus is pretty clear in the matter."

pinhedz
Schrödinger's Hepcat

Posts : 11528
Join date : 2011-04-11
Location : DC

http://www.balalaika.org/

Back to top Go down

Re: Albert Einstein

Post  Sponsored content Today at 4:20 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum