William Zantzinger appreciation thread

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William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:21 am

Bob gets undue credit for helping oppressed minorities just because he wrote some songs.

But William Zantzinger didn't just sing about it--he acted, and provided low-cost housing to the poorest of poor black people.

And while it's true that he evicted some of them, or took them to court for nonpayment of rent, and it's also true that he didn't actually own the properties he was renting, the fact remains that he provided housing to people that no one else would have as tenants--people who would have been homeless if it wasn't for him.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:22 am


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:23 am

It's true he got arrested alot:


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:24 am


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  Doc Watson on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:25 am

It is interesting how history can be represented

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:27 am

Bob has failed to compose "The Ballad of William Zantzinger," so I think it's going to be up to us. geek

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:51 pm

Better get this thing started ...

William Zantzinger they said,
Were not a man well-read,
Turn, turn, turn again,
But he always spoke his mind,
Be it harsh or be it kind,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Comin' from the county fair,
He was puttin' on some airs,
Struttin' with some 25-cent cane,
Maybe had to much to drink,
(leastwise that's that I think),
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  precinct14 on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:05 am

I did a Hattie Carroll rewrite sometime. Can't remember if it was here, or over there. Think it was here. May have to enlist in the Cache n' Carry platoon to liberate it. Better be doin' that fer Siegfried und Roy, too.


Last edited by precinct14 on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  eddie on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:27 am

precinct14 wrote:Siegfried und Roy

The best of what's left of the old ATU "Siegfried und Roy's Bob Dylan Appreciation" thread:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DQK_1NTD2P8J:acrosstheuniverse.forumotion.com/t1603-siegried-und-roy-s-bob-dylan-appreciation-thread+acrosstheuniverse+%2B+siegfried+und+roy+bob+dylan+appreciation+thread&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

...a particularly sad loss.


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  precinct14 on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:53 am

Eddie, thankyou so much for pulling up Sig n' Roy. I'll have to try and get my head round how and what to do with the little tinkers. Perhaps unleash and set them on Kaiser Wilhelm Zantziger.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:21 am

While Billy Z. was renting shacks to poor folks in a housing development called Pautuxent Woods, the gub'mint took possession of the properties for back taxes. But did the gub'mint do anything with the property? Did they step in as landlords for the poor folks?

No--the gubmint did nothing, so the tenants kept on living in the shacks, and crazy Billy kept on collecting rent. Razz

Zantzinger's fraud was uncovered by a non-government political activist group, and poor Bill got arrested and jailed again. When he was sentenced to jail time, some some of his tenants cried. Crying or Very sad

And the lady that got him arrested has had second thoughts herself:

"Mother Jones interviewed former Maryland housing activist Candice Quinn Kelly for its November 2004 issue, and found her in forgiving mood. “I was on the other side from Zantzinger in the Patuxent Woods situation,” she told MJ's Ian Frazier. “In fact, it was our organization that uncovered his fraud in the first place. Maybe I've mellowed or sold-out, but I don't see things as clear-cut as I did then.”

“Billy Zantzinger provides housing to marginal folks nobody's going to give a lease to, because they don't have a job or a rent deposit or a bank account or whatever. I learned that you can offer people tons of help and they still can't get out of poverty. Billy rents to these people anyway. Since Patuxent Woods, I've met him and talked to him a couple of times, and I feel strange saying this, but Billy Zantzinger is really a very nice man.

Shocked Shocked Shocked


Last edited by pinhedz on Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:38 am

pinhedz wrote:
William Zantzinger they said,
Were not a man well-read,
Turn, turn, turn again,
But he always spoke his mind,
Be it harsh or be it kind,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Comin' from the county fair,
He was puttin' on some airs,
Struttin' with some 25-cent cane,
Maybe had to much to drink,
(leastwise that's what I think),
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Below the Mason-Dixon
Where young Billy learned his diction,
turn, turn, turn again,
They didn't teach their children
To say "African American"
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Bob grew up with a difference
in the land of Minnesotans,
Turn, turn, turn again,
Where the man that's black or brown
Is seldom to be found,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  precinct14 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:07 am

Funny. An across the universe+hattie googlesearch led me to this on ER:



The Loathsome Threat of Hattie Carroll

William Zantzinger tapped whore Hattie Carroll
With a blow-up cane that he bought from a funfair
At a Baltimore charity civil rights gath'rin'
And the cops came and punctured his cane right before him
And then beat him up on the ride to the station
And booked William Zantzinger for war crimes and murder
But you who philosophise on drapes and criticise all chairs
Take those pince-nez away from your face
Now ain't the time to see clear

William Zantzinger, who at 24 years
Runs a shelter for 600 Quakers
And spends all his money to provide and protect them
But hateful Hattie Carroll, she set out to thwart him
Reacted to his deed by deliberately dying
After swear words and sneering, her tongue she was swallowing
In a matter of minutes in jail he was wallowing
But you who pontificate on race and then critique a pear
Take that latte away from your face
Then flick back that foppish blonde hair

Hattie Carroll got laid in the kitchen
She was 20 years old and gave birth to 51 children
Who stole the dishes and ransacked the garbage
And she always took up 4 seats at the table
And never ever talked to the people at the table
And just hoovered up all their food from the table
And emptied it into a mouth like a stable,
Her death was a show, that she feigned with a cane
That floated through the air, came down like a balloon
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle.
And he never done nothing did William Zantzinger
But you who rearrange old crates, and wear bell-bottomed flares
Shave that goatee away from your face
Now ain't the time for beat beards

In the courtroom the judge he proceeded to gargle
And prove that lying crack whore Hattie Carroll’s
Post-mortem statement was unvarnished drivel
And that noble Zantzinger got cruelly mishandled
After the cops had chased after and thrashed him
And that even a philanthropist he can’t escape ‘em
Stared at the person who cared for a reason
Whose love for poor blacks was both selfless and warming
And he spoke through a throat, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
Hattie Carroll….. with a lifetime sentence
Oh, but you who philosophise disgrace after 46 long years
Deck your brownstone windows with lace
But don’t buy no canes from funfairs.

- the precinct of 14


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:41 am

I think I'm seeing a certain lack of objectivity in precinct's post above.

I think he's way too harsh in his assessment of Hattie Carroll's motives, and he turns a blind eye to Zantzinger's shortcomings.

Of course, we often see the same faults in Bob's work--all bombast and polemics with no subtlety or nuance. drunken geek

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:42 am

pinhedz wrote:
William Zantzinger they said,
Were not a man well-read,
Turn, turn, turn again,
But he always spoke his mind,
Be it harsh or be it kind,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Comin' from the county fair,
He was puttin' on some airs,
Struttin' with some 25-cent cane,
Maybe had to much to drink,
(leastwise that's what I think),
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Below the Mason-Dixon
Where young Billy learned his diction,
turn, turn, turn again,
They didn't teach their children
To say "African American"
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Bob grew up with a difference
in the land of Minnesotans,
Turn, turn, turn again,
Where the man that's black or brown
Is seldom to be found,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.
I believe the pinhed can write a better song than Precinct, but i hope it doesn't end up as long a some of Bob's songs.

Billie wanted more to drink,
and he did not kindly think,
Turn, turn, turn again,
That the woman at the bar
was performing up to par,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

So he raised up his toy cane,
slapped her shoulder, slapped again,
Turn, turn, turn again,
And to make the insult worse,
spoke an epithet and curse,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:22 pm

This could get as long as a Bob dylan song (Bob wrote much faster, of course):

pinhedz wrote:
William Zantzinger they said,
Were not a man well-read,
Turn, turn, turn again,
But he always spoke his mind,
Be it harsh or be it kind,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Comin' from the county fair,
He was puttin' on some airs,
Struttin' with some 25-cent cane,
Maybe had to much to drink,
(leastwise that's what I think),
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Below the Mason-Dixon
Where young Billy learned his diction,
turn, turn, turn again,
They didn't teach their children
To say "African American"
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Bob grew up with a difference
in the land of Minnesotans,
Turn, turn, turn again,
Where the man that's black or brown
Is seldom to be found,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Billie wanted more to drink,
and he did not kindly think,
Turn, turn, turn again,
That the woman at the bar
was performing up to par,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

So he raised up his toy cane,
slapped her shoulder, slapped again,
Turn, turn, turn again,
And to make the insult worse,
spoke an epithet and curse,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.
That poor lady was unwell,
She staggered, then she fell,
Turn, turn, turn again,
And Billie was struck dumb,
When he saw what he had done,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

When the police came that night,
Billie didn't make to fight,
Turn, turn, turn again,
He couldn't speak no more,
His eyes starring at the floor,
Turn, turn, and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:22 pm

I think it's time for this saga to conclude (I'd say it's as long as some of Bob's short ones, but the lyrics are too good to be by Bob Cool ).

The Lonesome Life of Billie Zantzinger

William Zantzinger they said,
Were not a man well-read,
Turn, turn, turn again,
But he always spoke his mind,
Be it harsh or be it kind,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Comin' from the county fair,
He was puttin' on some airs,
Struttin' with some 25-cent cane,
Maybe had to much to drink,
(leastwise that's what I think),
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Below the Mason-Dixon
Where young Billy learned his diction,
turn, turn, turn again,
They didn't teach their children
To say "African American"
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Bob grew up with a difference
in the land of Minnesotans,
Turn, turn, turn again,
Where the man that's black or brown
Is seldom to be found,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

Billie wanted more to drink,
and he did not kindly think,
Turn, turn, turn again,
That the woman at the bar
was performing up to par,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

So he raised up his toy cane,
slapped her shoulder, slapped again,
Turn, turn, turn again,
And to make the insult worse,
spoke an epithet and curse,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

That poor lady was unwell,
She staggered, then she fell,
Turn, turn, turn again,
And Billie was struck dumb,
When he saw what he had done,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

When the police came that night,
Billie didn't make to fight,
Turn, turn, turn again,
He couldn't speak no more,
His eyes starring at the floor,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

The doctor judged her death
had it's cause in her poor health,
But her time had not came.
It was sudden, Billie's fault,
for his insults and assaults,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

The judge, he called for order,
sayin' "He's guilty of manslaughter!
And he should be ashamed!"
"I'm right sorry 'bout what happened,"
Billie said and then was silent.
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain..

Poor Billie's wife she cried,
and his mother nearly died,
turn, turn, turn again,
for the disgrace of that day,
it might never go away,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  Yakima Canutt on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:52 pm

Dont rekall if this has been kovered, but if Zantzy was so sore at the Dylanic outrages, and if Zantzy was a man of means, why didn't he just sue Dylans for the libeling? Mayb perhaps Zantz enjoyed the notoriety on some level, hmm hmm?

The bigger Dylanic outrage might THE HURRICANE BOXER. I dont recall all the ins and outs of the case, but post-freedom interviews with THE HURRICANE seem to be showing a DUDE what GOT AWAY WITH MURDERING, with his large guano-eating grin, twinkle in his eyeballs and huckster-stylee speechifying - that dont seem like tha countenance of a mann who spent years in stir for the crime he did not perpo trait. Ah well, at least he dodged the mouse transformation schedules.


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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:59 pm

Zantz talked about suing, and also--allegedly--called Bob "A scum of a bag of the earth."
But if he enjoyed the notoriety, suing Bob would have been a good way to get more of that, I reckon.

As for the Hurricane Man, as far as I know he's OK with his song. geek

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:24 am

Bobby's age it was young,
just a few years past twenty,
Turn, turn, turn again,
Of brains he had none,
But of nerve he had plenty,
Turn, turn, and the wind and the rain.

He picked up his pen,
And he thought it a sword,
Turn, turn, turn again,
As he wrote his first line
He relished every word,
Turn, turn, and the wind and the rain.

With righteous spite he judged
The man he never met,
Turn, turn, turn again,
With no reason for his grudge
He worked until he sweat,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

And when his work was through,
His smile it was wide,
Turn, turn, turn again,
It was not he would rue
The consequence of pride,
Turn, turn and the wind and the rain.

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  Doc Watson on Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:58 am

good !

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Re: William Zantzinger appreciation thread

Post  pinhedz on Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:58 pm

“This is a true story. This is taken out of the newspapers.”
-- Bob Dylan, introducing Hattie Carroll at Manchester Free Trade Hall in May 1965.



“The song was a lie. Just a damned lie.”
-- William Zantzinger, quoted in The New Yorker, January 26, 2009.

In his article "True Lies: The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll," Paul Slade writes:

The critic Paul Nelson, who had always been sceptical about glib protest songs, heard Dylan play "Pawn" for a small group of friends in the summer of 1963, and took this opportunity to challenge the singer about it. “These songs were like fish in the barrel stuff,” Nelson later wrote. “It's like patting-yourself-on-the-back music. [...] Dylan was going ‘No, no, this is really where it's at’. But he also made the point that the easiest way to get published if you wrote your own songs was to write topical songs, ‘cause Broadside wouldn't publish you if you didn't.”

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